marknorton Posted September 19, 2007 Share #21 Posted September 19, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Agree. Full compatibility of current R lenses, plus early ones as far as possible, is mandatory IMHO. Perhaps now is the time to start asking for a lens selection menu... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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sdai Posted September 19, 2007 Share #22 Posted September 19, 2007 Perhaps now is the time to start asking for a lens selection menu... There's no need for a lens selection menu for the R, Mark. All ROM lenses are chipped and can be recognized by the camera already ... and there's no need to support third parties' lenses, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share #23 Posted September 19, 2007 Besides the serious investment in R glass there are some lenses in that line that i honestly don't think you could even possibly improve on. There APO Teylt line is honestly the best long glasss in use today big and heavy yes but killer quality. Than there is the 19mm, 28mm, 50 lux, 90 apo, 28-90 just to name a few that i personally have tested and there simply is nothing better in there class. There are some great lenses in this line. The one killer and i really mean this and Doug Herr loves this lens also and he shoots wildlife but the 280 mm F4 is a lens that is completely unmatched in my book. i never seen a long lens in this focal length this good. Whatever Leica comes out with HAS to be backwards compatable or there will be a huge ship sinking here. While I fully agree that current R glass is one of the best (besides Zeiss IMHO) I do not really see the need with backwards compatibility. Why, if the new DSLR is AF, would I want to use a MF 28-90 or 21-35, if I can get the same (or even better) with AF and maybe image stabilization. And this is true for all Leica R glass. Even with a huge investment, one can only leverage the full potential of a new AF model with the accompanying glass. Even if this will be what lots of s hate (because of the need for replacement) this is the only fgood way to go. Yes you can survive for some time with adapter solutions, but finally all old glass will be replaced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted September 19, 2007 Share #24 Posted September 19, 2007 While I fully agree that current R glass is one of the best (besides Zeiss IMHO) I do not really see the need with backwards compatibility. Why, if the new DSLR is AF, would I want to use a MF 28-90 or 21-35, if I can get the same (or even better) with AF and maybe image stabilization. And this is true for all Leica R glass. Even with a huge investment, one can only leverage the full potential of a new AF model with the accompanying glass. Even if this will be what lots of s hate (because of the need for replacement) this is the only fgood way to go. Yes you can survive for some time with adapter solutions, but finally all old glass will be replaced. It will be fully compatible with existing R lenses. If not I'll be one of those walking out. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share #25 Posted September 19, 2007 It will be fully compatible with existing R lenses. If not I'll be one of those walking out. Cheers, Even if you are jumping and crying around you will not be able to change the decisions at Leica. Sure, they moght loose some old customers, but maybe win much more new ones who finally buy more (bodies and lenses) from a revolutionary new system than it would happen by just adopting the old R system. The R system seems to be dead for me this is meanwhile a not too difficult conclusion which one can draw. If we like it (I do not mind although I have a huge R investmebnt) or we hate it and move to other systems/vendors is up to everybodies decision. For me I will carefully watch what comes up and then look at the price and then my needs - and then I will decide to either buy into the new system or let it go. Hasselblad`s H3 system is something I really find interesting, but it is simply far too expensive for an enthusiastic amateur - so I let it go. We are talking about an entry price of some 40000.- Euro. If the new Leica DSLR system comes in an entry range of 10000.- Euro (which all the oters like Canon and future Nikon come) then it will be interesting and might be the system I am going for. We will see, but everybody will have their own threshold of entry for this. But because this is the case does not mean that such a new idea/system is bad. In fact it is great to see that Leica are progressively moving, I indeed hope that they will move progressive enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 19, 2007 Share #26 Posted September 19, 2007 I agree they would have too. What i see in the crystal ball them making maybe 2 or 3 AF zooms and maybe improving a couple lenses with AF primes but still use the R glass of today and mix and match the mount will stay the same but the ROM chip will become even more important on the new body. It will be able to give a lot more data to the camera from the lens but these AF lenses will have to carry the focusing motor so there going to be big and heavy too. IS can come inside these lenses too. My guess on price of entry is 7600.00 to 8400.00 This is a tough call because market and R&D will dictate this Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted September 19, 2007 Share #27 Posted September 19, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Even if you are jumping and crying around you will not be able to change the decisions at Leica. Sure, they moght loose some old customers, but maybe win much more new ones who finally buy more (bodies and lenses) from a revolutionary new system than it would happen by just adopting the old R system. The R system seems to be dead for me this is meanwhile a not too difficult conclusion which one can draw. If we like it (I do not mind although I have a huge R investmebnt) or we hate it and move to other systems/vendors is up to everybodies decision. For me I will carefully watch what comes up and then look at the price and then my needs - and then I will decide to either buy into the new system or let it go. Hasselblad`s H3 system is something I really find interesting, but it is simply far too expensive for an enthusiastic amateur - so I let it go. We are talking about an entry price of some 40000.- Euro. If the new Leica DSLR system comes in an entry range of 10000.- Euro (which all the oters like Canon and future Nikon come) then it will be interesting and might be the system I am going for. We will see, but everybody will have their own threshold of entry for this. But because this is the case does not mean that such a new idea/system is bad. In fact it is great to see that Leica are progressively moving, I indeed hope that they will move progressive enough. I'm not crying around I'm just stating that indeed, as a professional user with a very large investment in the system, I expect that Leica tradition will carry on with respect to backwards compatibility. That's one of the main reasons I've been close to 30 years with the system. Therefore, if my lense arsenal is no longer compatible with a new R body (highly unlikely scenario by the way) then I will be free to spend my money on another system, thus walking out. I say that tongue firmly planted in cheek as I am convinced (I won't say why...) that indeed any new R will accept my existing R lenses. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share #28 Posted September 19, 2007 I'm not crying around I'm just stating that indeed, as a professional user with a very large investment in the system, I expect that Leica tradition will carry on with respect to backwards compatibility. That's one of the main reasons I've been close to 30 years with the system. Therefore, if my lense arsenal is no longer compatible with a new R body (highly unlikely scenario by the way) then I will be free to spend my money on another system, thus walking out. I say that tongue firmly planted in cheek as I am convinced (I won't say why...) that indeed any new R will accept my existing R lenses. Cheers, But whaz if there isd no new R coming, but a complete new system? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 19, 2007 Share #29 Posted September 19, 2007 Than folks like Conrad will walk and you can't blame them. There are many including yourself Peter that are R flush and i see no signs of giving up on the R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted September 19, 2007 Share #30 Posted September 19, 2007 Leica is too small a company to make their entire lens lineup obsolete, and their existing customers would mostly head towards Solms with torches and nooses on the ready. What they will almost certain do is to make a new R10 with a FF sensor, or slightly larger, to allow for different crop ratios, like the D3's 5:4 ratio, which is fully compatible with the existing lenses with focus confirmation. The question is if they add AF lenses. I think they will, and that there will be just a few useful lenses released, aimed at their primary action audience (these are the people who need AF). These lenses might be the 35-70/4, 70-180/2.8 and 80-200/4, and possibly the 28-90. Even that release lineup might stretch their resources quite a bit. Don't forget that Steven K. Lee is an R fan (with Dr. Kaufmann being an M fan). Can you imagine him signing the order to kill his current lenses? Leica has a looooooooooooooong history of great backwards compatibility. It won't end here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted September 19, 2007 Share #31 Posted September 19, 2007 Than folks like Conrad will walk and you can't blame them. There are many including yourself Peter that are R flush and i see no signs of giving up on the R I'll then stick to my existing R stuff get a second DMR and only use Rs with respect to Leica. Anyway, why don't we wait n see what comes out. I'm not one to waste time speculating. Right now the R8/DMR and R lenses float my boat, I expect they will continue to do so for a very long time. Through the years I've used Ms, medium and large format, panoramic, etc., but the main system has always been the R, I don't expect this to change unless Leica no longer provides support,maintenance and /or repairs. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share #32 Posted September 19, 2007 Leica is too small a company to make their entire lens lineup obsolete, and their existing customers would mostly head towards Solms with torches and nooses on the ready. What they will almost certain do is to make a new R10 with a FF sensor, or slightly larger, to allow for different crop ratios, like the D3's 5:4 ratio, which is fully compatible with the existing lenses with focus confirmation. The question is if they add AF lenses. I think they will, and that there will be just a few useful lenses released, aimed at their primary action audience (these are the people who need AF). These lenses might be the 35-70/4, 70-180/2.8 and 80-200/4, and possibly the 28-90. Even that release lineup might stretch their resources quite a bit. Don't forget that Steven K. Lee is an R fan (with Dr. Kaufmann being an M fan). Can you imagine him signing the order to kill his current lenses? Leica has a looooooooooooooong history of great backwards compatibility. It won't end here. All reasonable and of course fully understandable - but my feeling says that there will be a major step towards a totally new system and yes, the R glass will be reuseable, but whoever wants to make optimal usage of the new concept will need new glass. Also I would like to stress that professionals, who are already using their glass for many years should already have written off their investment and be free to go to some new equipment. Always sticking with the old does not allow progress or at least it slows progress down significantly. Examples of companies in that segment who have gone through significant system changes in the pasr are Canon (beeing today the most used professional camera system) and Hasselblad (having today the de facto only high end professional camera system) in the digital camp. Nikon, who decided to stay with their mount have had a much harder way t go and lost significant revenue over the past years compared to Canon who were the bad boys changing. So changing is not always bad. Change is today the only constant in successful life, if we like it or not. But this may be hard to understand for many Leica longtimers. My 5cent - Leica needs to make a real progressive change (not just a few lenses) and irrespective of whoever owns R glass. Only this will give them the potential to get new customers attracted to their products. Sorry to say, but the oldime Leica owners will not be the customers who will make this company get successful in the future - and I am counting myself into that oldtime users having my big R investment in mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share #33 Posted September 19, 2007 I'll then stick to my existing R stuff get a second DMR and only use Rs with respect to Leica. Anyway, why don't we wait n see what comes out. I'm not one to waste time speculating. Right now the R8/DMR and R lenses float my boat, I expect they will continue to do so for a very long time. Through the years I've used Ms, medium and large format, panoramic, etc., but the main system has always been the R, I don't expect this to change unless Leica no longer provides support,maintenance and /or repairs. Cheers, Well, you do not need to read our speculations, but there are others who want to understand as early as possible what will change to actually minimize their losses in unuseable equipment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted September 19, 2007 Share #34 Posted September 19, 2007 Well, you do not need to read our speculations, but there are others who want to understand as early as possible what will change to actually minimize their losses in unuseable equipment. One cannot base strategy on speculation Peter... Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share #35 Posted September 19, 2007 One cannot base strategy on speculation Peter... Cheers, Unfortunately it is much more than speculation .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EH21 Posted September 19, 2007 Share #36 Posted September 19, 2007 Peter, How would you feel if the resale value of your R gear dropped overnight? That's exactly what will happen if Leica introduces a new camera that is not compatible with the old lenses. While I might be interested in their new camera, I'll be pissed if I have to buy a new collection of glass and sell off my old stuff at cut rate prices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share #37 Posted September 19, 2007 Peter,How would you feel if the resale value of your R gear dropped overnight? That's exactly what will happen if Leica introduces a new camera that is not compatible with the old lenses. While I might be interested in their new camera, I'll be pissed if I have to buy a new collection of glass and sell off my old stuff at cut rate prices. Exactly agree - this is also how I would feel. On the other hand there are not too much choices. I for myself decided to get rid of lots of my R gear in time, to get this pain as small as possible :-)) What else can you do if you are not going to collect these items? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 19, 2007 Share #38 Posted September 19, 2007 Peter,How would you feel if the resale value of your R gear dropped overnight? That's exactly what will happen if Leica introduces a new camera that is not compatible with the old lenses. While I might be interested in their new camera, I'll be pissed if I have to buy a new collection of glass and sell off my old stuff at cut rate prices. I would/will look at all the alternatives on offer, not just that from Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share #39 Posted September 19, 2007 I would/will look at all the alternatives on offer, not just that from Leica. Since I am Nikon owner as well (with lot of supreme glass) this is one of my options - still not sure if I should get the D3 or wait for the high resolution version of this model. I just sold my D2X to get as much money out of it as possible bfore the price drops further. So my DX days (Crop days) are gone forever :-)) Leica or Nikon :-))) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhsimmonds Posted September 19, 2007 Share #40 Posted September 19, 2007 I would expect the new R to be autofocus....not that I want it to be as I much prefer m/f, but the bigger market may demand it. I would be very surprised and disappointed if Leica did not allow for existing R glass to be also used as well as a new range of a/f lenses. If the existing ROM lens system could then allow for focus confirmation, then they would have a real winner in my view, pleasing just about everyone! Lets face it, there are many times when a focus confirmation indicator in the viewfinder would have been oooooh so very nice! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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