Early Leica iiic US Military issued?

[James_b]

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Hello all,

I have stumbled upon a genuine Leica iiic, 1946-47, early production model with a 5cm 3.5 lens and case, engraved with the soldiers name on the rear top plate and bottom plate with his home town, a military issued card hidden in a sewn slot in the rear of the leather case in amazing condition. It seems to have belonged to a solder from the 47th infantry regiment, 9th infantry division, infamously called the "old reliables". Has there been any leicas of any kind like this issued from the US before? Is this something custom made for the soldier? I cant find any information as to there being any Leica cameras issued to US soldiers. FYI, ive been shooting with leicas for around 10 years but am in no way a history buff on all things Leica so i am genuinely curious. I bought this to get my Leica film fix after selling my epson rd-1 (i know its digital) but this camera is much more then just a good condition Leica. .0   IMG_1004.HEIC

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[250swb]

The 47th Infantry were deactivated in 1946 so perhaps he bought it back with him. There were many ways for soldiers to avoid import taxes and I believe one of them was to engrave their name on it to make it a personal item not for resale.

[Anbaric]

9 hours ago, James_b said:

Hello all,

I have stumbled upon a genuine Leica iiic, 1946-47, early production model with a 5cm 3.5 lens and case, engraved with the soldiers name on the rear top plate and bottom plate with his home town, a military issued card hidden in a sewn slot in the rear of the leather case in amazing condition. It seems to have belonged to a solder from the 47th infantry regiment, 9th infantry division, infamously called the "old reliables". Has there been any leicas of any kind like this issued from the US before? Is this something custom made for the soldier? I cant find any information as to there being any Leica cameras issued to US soldiers. FYI, ive been shooting with leicas for around 10 years but am in no way a history buff on all things Leica so i am genuinely curious. I bought this to get my Leica film fix after selling my epson rd-1 (i know its digital) but this camera is much more then just a good condition Leica. .0   IMG_1004.HEIC

My guess would be that a camera engraved with a name and home town rather than military markings was personalised for private use, quite possibly for the reason suggested above. Is it just a plain name, or does the engraving include a rank? Does the card refer to the camera in any way (e.g. a receipt), or does it just identify the soldier? An interesting piece of history either way!

I wasn't sure in which way you meant 'early production model'. Is it the first (wartime) version of the IIIc, with a 'step' under the rewind release lever, and a knob on the eyepiece adjustment lever? - a 1946-7 IIIc would generally lack these features. Does the serial number begin with a 3, or a 4?

[250swb]

Either way it seems impossible the US military would issue a camera, Leica or any other, and engrave the name of the soldier on it, kind of like inscribing a name on a rifle, or a tank, what happens if shit happens, you retire the camera?

[pedaes]

14 hours ago, James_b said:

hidden in a sewn

Welcome to the Forum. All Leica cases have the 'slot' at the rear of the case, to note the film loaded by box top etc.

[James_b]

11 hours ago, Anbaric said:

My guess would be that a camera engraved with a name and home town rather than military markings was personalised for private use, quite possibly for the reason suggested above. Is it just a plain name, or does the engraving include a rank? Does the card refer to the camera in any way (e.g. a receipt), or does it just identify the soldier? An interesting piece of history either way!

I wasn't sure in which way you meant 'early production model'. Is it the first (wartime) version of the IIIc, with a 'step' under the rewind release lever, and a knob on the eyepiece adjustment lever? - a 1946-7 IIIc would generally lack these features. Does the serial number begin with a 3, or a 4?

It is his name on the top plate and his home town engraved on the bottom, his military card is in this slot towards the rear where a film speed card would be, no receipt or anything referencing the camera or its serial number so Im guessing in some way he personalized the camera for memories during his service at war. It honestly doesn't seem to have been used at all. its in too good of condition to have been used during his tour in the service. Referring to the production model, i believe its an early production model of the second version iiic, starts with a 4. 400963. With all of the great information you guys provided, Im guessing it was something purchased after WWII, during his time of service, still not sure if it was brought over to avoid taxes as you said. He retired a military vet and passed in 2011, but was drafted around 44-45. Interesting on how much information you could get with a google search. I have more documents connecting the soldier to the camera and his time in the military, ranked T5. 

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[250swb]

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I think you misunderstand. The 47th Infantry were deactivated in 1946 and sent back to the US. If the soldier bought any new luxury goods while in Germany, such as a watch or Leica camera, they would be charged import duty if they brought it back into the US unless it was clearly marked as a personal possession, so they they had their name engraved on it to prove it wasn't for resale. It wasn't tax evasion but tax avoidance, two very different things. I'm pretty sure this subject of names engraved on US cameras has come up before but can't find the thread at the moment.

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

I'm pretty sure this subject of names engraved on US cameras has come up before but can't find the thread at the moment.

One for @derleicaman?

[derleicaman]

5 hours ago, pedaes said:

One for @derleicaman?

Thanks for thinking of me! :-)

At this point, we have basically zero information to go on. I cannot open the image(?) in the original post. What is the serial number of the camera? If we could have some pictures of the camera, the name engraving, card that came with the camera, that would help to make some intelligent comments.

Interesting to me, is that the original owner of the camera was born a few months before my dad. My dad was born in Germany and emmigrated with his family to the US in 1929. When he turned 18 in 1945, he was inducted into the Army and trained as a photographer, and then sent to Germany after the war ended. Officially, he used a Speed Graphic for his work, but wanted a Leica in the worst way. Being in Germany, and being a native German speaker, one would think this would be easy. Far from it! He told me that getting one through official channels was impossible, as they were doled out through a lottery which seemed to favor officers. He ended up getting one through bartering coffee and cigarettes, which were better than cash in those days.

Very few cameras were engraved by Leitz with an owner's name. A few were engraved with the name of the US Army administrator of the Leitz factory in Wetzlar, but that is about it. Private engraving is another possibility, but not likely. Leitz delivery records at most would reveal who the it was delivered to originally, say to the PX system or the US military.

Another personal story about having a Leica during the war was from a family friend and photographic mentor of my dad's and his war time IIIcK. He was a few years older than my dad, and was a Signal Corps photographer during the war. He was issued a IIIcK, and used it in Europe (England, France and Germany) until he was shipped back home. Being a good and honest guy, he turned his camera back in to Signal Corps upon discharge. Somewhere, I have a picture of him in uniform with the camera and a detailed picture of the top plate with serial number. He was a life long Leica man and LHSA member. He searched for that camera until the day he died, but never found it again!

[James_b]

Here are some clear images of the camera in its basic entirety. I am getting it sent off for a full cla soon but, i will be putting a roll through it today before its shipped out. 35mm Arista Ultra 400. There wasn't any portra sadly. I hope this clears up some questions, its in amazing condition which made me think it was a fake at first glance. The military ownership put that to rest. The original owners story can be tracked through his division and rank, which is a specialized rank? Still unclear what his role was during his service. An amazing find for me with a pretty cool backstory to go with world war history. Id love to know more on how he attained the camera, where the engraving came from and what significance it played in the soldiers life during his time in the military. 

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[James_b]

Here are some clear images of the camera in its basic entirety. I am getting it sent off for a full cla soon but, i will be putting a roll through it today before its shipped out. 35mm Arista Ultra 400. There wasn't any portra sadly. I hope this clears up some questions, its in amazing condition which made me think it was a fake at first glance. The military ownership put that to rest. The original owners story can be tracked through his division and rank, which is a specialized rank? Still unclear what his role was during his service. An amazing find for me with a pretty cool backstory to go with world war history. Id love to know more on how he attained the camera, where the engraving came from and what significance it played in the soldiers life during his time in the military. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[James_b]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[James_b]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[James_b]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[James_b]

On 9/26/2022 at 10:36 AM, derleicaman said:

Thanks for thinking of me! 🙂

At this point, we have basically zero information to go on. I cannot open the image(?) in the original post. What is the serial number of the camera? If we could have some pictures of the camera, the name engraving, card that came with the camera, that would help to make some intelligent comments.

Interesting to me, is that the original owner of the camera was born a few months before my dad. My dad was born in Germany and emmigrated with his family to the US in 1929. When he turned 18 in 1945, he was inducted into the Army and trained as a photographer, and then sent to Germany after the war ended. Officially, he used a Speed Graphic for his work, but wanted a Leica in the worst way. Being in Germany, and being a native German speaker, one would think this would be easy. Far from it! He told me that getting one through official channels was impossible, as they were doled out through a lottery which seemed to favor officers. He ended up getting one through bartering coffee and cigarettes, which were better than cash in those days.

Very few cameras were engraved by Leitz with an owner's name. A few were engraved with the name of the US Army administrator of the Leitz factory in Wetzlar, but that is about it. Private engraving is another possibility, but not likely. Leitz delivery records at most would reveal who the it was delivered to originally, say to the PX system or the US military.

Another personal story about having a Leica during the war was from a family friend and photographic mentor of my dad's and his war time IIIcK. He was a few years older than my dad, and was a Signal Corps photographer during the war. He was issued a IIIcK, and used it in Europe (England, France and Germany) until he was shipped back home. Being a good and honest guy, he turned his camera back in to Signal Corps upon discharge. Somewhere, I have a picture of him in uniform with the camera and a detailed picture of the top plate with serial number. He was a life long Leica man and LHSA member. He searched for that camera until the day he died, but never found it again!

I was having issues with uploading images on the forum, the files were too large. Those photos should give more context. Your fathers story is an amazing one. I hope one day you find that camera. I did attempt to track family members with no luck. I even went as far as to find census records. The furthest ive gotten to a living person was a photo taken of the soldiers burial plot in Alabama by a hobbyist who made records of burials for a website called find a grave. He managed about 11k graves for loved ones. Still no luck on anyone living. I bought the camera from a person on facebook marketplace. His story detailed the camera belonging to his in-laws. They purchased a home with an estate attached to it and this was one of those things they had from the sale. The house has since been flipped and I'm guessing with all of the belongings. They have no records of the previous home owners. I tried to find records of the camera with the serial and all ive gotten was a vague description of what date it was manufactured, which was 46/47. 

[James_b]

4 hours ago, Al Brown said:

No HEIC files and max 2.44 MB size for the upload.

Figured it out, But thanks.

[James_b]

I put a roll through and im hoping for the best. I had to cut down some of the film but later found out i didn't need to since this has a timer and can be loaded safely through with the curtain open. Might be shooting one more roll just for assurance that the other wasn't shit. A piece of film fell out once the film was removed. Im guessing the short film lead snapped during the wind. Gotta let the processing lab know there might be an issue removing the film, if it's even worth the effort or no effort at all, who knows. I got some good shots in. Focusing is a bit of a pain. The double image isn't quite clear to quickly identify focus. Swapping back and forth with focusing and framing is a little odd to get used to but once i found a groove, i measured for light, set my settings and shot on command. I couldn't tell if the shutter was faster or slower at 100-500-1000. 400 film and it was sunny so the shutter speed was high the majority of the time, even stopped down. Itll be interesting to shoot with it again and see the results from both film rolls. 

[James_b]

That will determine if getting it CLA'd is worth keeping or selling. 

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Hallo,

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[James_b]

Also, the lens serial number matches the manufacturing of the body as well. Im not sure what significance this has but its period correct? ha 

 

serial: 602052

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, James_b said:

I put a roll through and im hoping for the best. I had to cut down some of the film but later found out i didn't need to since this has a timer and can be loaded safely through with the curtain open. Might be shooting one more roll just for assurance that the other wasn't shit. A piece of film fell out once the film was removed. Im guessing the short film lead snapped during the wind.

I think it's simpler and safer to trim the leader according to the profile shown in the manual - the clearest loading instructions are probably those in the IIIf manual here, from p27:

https://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_if_iif_iiif.pdf

There's a picture of the correct profile on p29, in this case with 23 'unpaired' sprocket holes. The original metal cutting templates are now overpriced collectibles, though there are some (mostly plastic) modern equivalents. Personally, I just use scissors, taking care not to damage any of the sprocket holes (i.e., cutting between rather than through them) and rounding off the corner. This is easy with a little practice and a small pair of scissors. If a piece of film breaks off from an untrimmed or incorrectly trimmed leader (as you've seen), there's a risk it will get in the mechanism and jam something, so it's worth taking a little extra time to do this properly. If you trim your films before you go out, reloading in the field is much simpler and quicker than any method that requires you to take off the lens and mess with the shutter.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Anbaric