Matching SL2-S Picture Profiles to Sony A7III (Video)

[Laharrier]

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Question for the video guys. I’m on a shoot this week with a guy who shoots Sony. A7III to be exact. We are attempting to sync up picture profiles for filming and it occurs to me that Leica doesn’t provide you with many variables in video settings, ie black point saturation etc like the Sony’s do. Our test footage both shot at the same frame rate/resolution shows some strong differences in L-Log footage and S-Log pre-graded footage. Wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction here. The SL2-S is brand new to me so apologies if this is a stupid question with an obvious answer 

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[frame-it]

the footage will be matched when color grading, if both cameras are in log mode it will be easier

 

[Laharrier]

49 minutes ago, frame-it said:

the footage will be matched when color grading, if both cameras are in log mode it will be easier

 

Indeed. Our comparison of S log and L log were pretty different. Was just hoping to streamline LUT application in post by shooting in a similar picture profile. Sony has HLG3 Leica only HLG. Probably as close as we’ll get. 

[Aaron Daniel]

Following this thread as well! I also work with Sony A7Siii shooters and matching to the SL2-s has always felt like a "reinvent the wheel" starting from scratch for every project. I've played around with the following settings so far:

- S-Log2 (or 3 if you are experienced with the flatter image, but I'd only recommend SLog3 for the 10bit Sony cameras ie. A7Siii)

- S-Gamut3 (for biggest colour space to get as close to SL2-s rec2020)

- -4 Sharpness (as I don't find processed sharpening too pleasing)

- and saturation I personally go all the way up to +20 on the Sony, but that depends on your picture profile on your SL2-S; with +20 saturation on the Sony I keep the Leica at 0 I believe. I'd say the Saturation has the most wiggle room when trying to match these bodies, so I'd recommend playing around with this setting!

 

[Aaron Daniel]

With the above settings, I do also want to add that there is still some noticeable tint differences, so you will still need to do manual changes with colour correcting and grading.

Here is my latest example of trying to match the SL2-S with a Sony A7Siii (the Sony are the tripod and gimbal shots)

 

[Laharrier]

5 hours ago, Aaron Daniel said:

With the above settings, I do also want to add that there is still some noticeable tint differences, so you will still need to do manual changes with colour correcting and grading.

Here is my latest example of trying to match the SL2-S with a Sony A7Siii (the Sony are the tripod and gimbal shots)

 

Thank you Aaron! Great info. The SL2-S seems to have big potential as a video tool but seems the interface lags behind the likes of Sony. 

[hansvons]

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10 minutes ago, Laharrier said:

The SL2-S seems to have big potential as a video tool but seems the interface lags behind the likes of Sony. 

On the contrary, the Sl2-S offers you precisely what a grown-up film camera does: shutter angle, ISO ( L-Log's DR is best at ISO 800), Kelvin, and speed in terms of FPS. Plus, tons of DR are packed in a convenient colour space. When I grab an Alexa, I set the shutter angle to 180, The FPS to 25, the Kelvin to 6.000, and ISO to 800. 

In my opinion, all other stuff that camera manufacturers cramp in their UI is unnecessary. The only thing that I welcome from time to time is IBIS. But panning looks awful. 

When matching cameras, the best workflow is colour-managed. Choose ACES or Resolve's proprietary colour management, and you won't face more obstacles than matching an Alexa with a Sony. L-Log, like any other log format, best resembles Leica's colour space because it's made to do precisely that. In the SL2-S case, L-Log is made for Rec 2020, making it easy to tag the camera. Just select Rec 2020 as input transform. That's different from Sony because you don't choose Rec2020 for the Sony but Sony's respective Log. Regardless, there isn't a workflow for matching cameras that doesn't require some attention from the user/colourist. At some point, you'll have to eyeball the difference and adjust accordingly.

(HLG, on the other hand, is a display referred, gamma-encoded colour space that, by design, throws away information in the shadows way up to the highlight, extending the regular Rec709 HD colour space with a logarithmically encoded longer end in the highlights to make it work in Rec 2100 and somewhat in Rec709. That's why it looks okay-ish in Rec709 but not as good as graded footage off L-Log.)

[BernardC]

20 minutes ago, hansvons said:

On the contrary, the Sl2-S offers you precisely what a grown-up film camera does

I agree there, but it's really a difference of philosophy. Sony's video heritage comes from the Betacam ENG days, and it will be familiar with users who have that experience. It's different from interfaces that come from a cine background.

You should be able to get a reasonable match in Resolve, provided that you group the Sony clips and assign the appropriate Sony IDT in a group pre-clip transform, and do the same with the Leica clips, using a Rec2020 transform.

This video explains the process step-by-step:

 

You'll never get a perfect match, even if you use an Arri Alexa and a Sony Venice. You'll never match a Venice with a Sony A7sIII either. As good as all these cameras are, they don't respond the same way. It's the same thing as mixing film stocks in the analogue days: it's not something you want to do within one scene, unless it's for an effect (or a crash cam that will be used in very short cuts).

[Laharrier]

9 hours ago, hansvons said:

On the contrary, the Sl2-S offers you precisely what a grown-up film camera does: shutter angle, ISO ( L-Log's DR is best at ISO 800), Kelvin, and speed in terms of FPS. Plus, tons of DR are packed in a convenient colour space. When I grab an Alexa, I set the shutter angle to 180, The FPS to 25, the Kelvin to 6.000, and ISO to 800. 

In my opinion, all other stuff that camera manufacturers cramp in their UI is unnecessary. The only thing that I welcome from time to time is IBIS. But panning looks awful. 

When matching cameras, the best workflow is colour-managed. Choose ACES or Resolve's proprietary colour management, and you won't face more obstacles than matching an Alexa with a Sony. L-Log, like any other log format, best resembles Leica's colour space because it's made to do precisely that. In the SL2-S case, L-Log is made for Rec 2020, making it easy to tag the camera. Just select Rec 2020 as input transform. That's different from Sony because you don't choose Rec2020 for the Sony but Sony's respective Log. Regardless, there isn't a workflow for matching cameras that doesn't require some attention from the user/colourist. At some point, you'll have to eyeball the difference and adjust accordingly.

(HLG, on the other hand, is a display referred, gamma-encoded colour space that, by design, throws away information in the shadows way up to the highlight, extending the regular Rec709 HD colour space with a logarithmically encoded longer end in the highlights to make it work in Rec 2100 and somewhat in Rec709. That's why it looks okay-ish in Rec709 but not as good as graded footage off L-Log.)

Wonderful reply!! Thank you so much - this is a great community! 

[Laharrier]

9 hours ago, BernardC said:

I agree there, but it's really a difference of philosophy. Sony's video heritage comes from the Betacam ENG days, and it will be familiar with users who have that experience. It's different from interfaces that come from a cine background.

You should be able to get a reasonable match in Resolve, provided that you group the Sony clips and assign the appropriate Sony IDT in a group pre-clip transform, and do the same with the Leica clips, using a Rec2020 transform.

This video explains the process step-by-step:

 

You'll never get a perfect match, even if you use an Arri Alexa and a Sony Venice. You'll never match a Venice with a Sony A7sIII either. As good as all these cameras are, they don't respond the same way. It's the same thing as mixing film stocks in the analogue days: it's not something you want to do within one scene, unless it's for an effect (or a crash cam that will be used in very short cuts).

Thanks a million! Very useful and helpful reply!