Riccis Posted September 20, 2007 Share #21 Posted September 20, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Of course, it hasn't... While I frequent the M8 forum, my favorite one is the People forum. 90% of my professional wedding work is done with the M8, but the other 10% and all of my personal work is done with either an M7, a IIIf, an XPan, a Rolleiflex or a Holga. Cheers, Riccis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 20, 2007 Posted September 20, 2007 Hi Riccis, Take a look here Two viewing this forum. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Kent10D Posted September 20, 2007 Share #22 Posted September 20, 2007 Wow ... all this ill-will toward the M8 forum. Tsk tsk. Anyway, so I just bought an M6. I'm having a wonderful time with my M8, but I missed B&W film, and since I just happen to have all these M-mount lenses I did the obvious thing. My M8 and M6 are partners from now on. M6 loaded with B&W film and a 35 mm lens more or less permanently attached, and M8 for everything else. So, for anyone who thinks comparisons between a Canon *D and the M8 are a waste of time (you know who you are), just where should I post my comparison between film and digital M images, eh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted September 20, 2007 Share #23 Posted September 20, 2007 Wow ... all this ill-will toward the M8 forum. Tsk tsk... So, for anyone who thinks comparisons between a Canon *D and the M8 are a waste of time (you know who you are), just where should I post my comparison between film and digital M images, eh? hehe - I guess you mean me? But seriously - it's not ill-will, but there's definitely a spirit of intolerance on the M8 forum that frankly often leaves a bad after-taste (take a look at the discussion there on the 'M8 in the desert' right now - it appears that raw obscenity is acceptable - when it's in defense of the M8, that is). My own plan was to buy an M8, so this isn't coming from someone who is fundamentally opposed to the digital medium, but I'm afraid I saw so many potential problems that I decided to go with a couple of analog Ms instead - and I really haven't regretted it for a second! Not only do I find the whole process more satisfying, there's also something ineffably better in the final output to my eyes - and that is something that has no relation whatsoever to resolution or 'sharpness' or whatever it is people are always saying the M8 has more of than every other camera. What's more, I've rediscovered a whole world of different films; of different formats; of old cameras that each have their own unique character and possibilities; of different processes and 'looks' that are an organic and unique consequence of chemicals and film and paper, and not the mathematical calculation of a Photoshop algorithm programmed to mimic another medium. And all of these old cameras have unique characteristics and quirks - instead of the consumer-driven sameness of sensors and mega-pixels and 'resolution'. One thing about the M8 - believe me, the people who are ranting against 'full-frame' now, will be buying the full-frame M9 in the blink of an eye when it comes - together with all the lenses they're gonna need to adjust to the update. There's some high-profile figures on the forum who swore they'd never, ever abandon the R-system - until the newer product came along and the consumer-lust took control.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent10D Posted September 20, 2007 Share #24 Posted September 20, 2007 hehe - I guess you mean me? Whoops! Was I that obvious? Sorry about that. It is a turbulent time in the M8 world, and it'll probably take a while to settle down. There seems to be an incredible amount of resistance to the idea of a digital M, and M8 adopters take a lot of flak from people who really haven't bothered to do the research. They can, as a result, get a little defensive. But on the whole I don't think it adds up to general intolerance. And the camera really does deliver some very, very impressive output. There's no doubt about that. But ... it ain't film. Film and digital are just two different animals. If you like working with film, and like the look, I sincerely doubt that you'd be satisfied with with digital alone. I've come to the conclusion that I need both. I dug out some old B&W negs that I shot about 30 years ago and scanned and printed some of the best and, as you say, there's a vibe with film that is somethiing special. I have absolutely no argument with that at all. But digital has it's place, and will continue to take a more and more prominent role in mainstream imaging. My approach is that, rather than taking sides (and being an inveterate geek), I just want to know what the various media can do firsthand. The whole thing is so subjective that it would be unrealistic, if not arrogant, to claim that one way of doing things is better than the other. I'm constantly comparing this and that, but only to determine what works for me, as opposed to trying to force "The Gospel" down other people's throats. Admittedly there are digital (M8) bigots, as there are film bigots (and Canon bigots, and Nikon bigots, etc, etc.), but fortunately that's not everyone. I kinda doubt that it's even the majority. But anyway, I'm getting back into film a bit myself, primarily for B&W. But I won't be abandoning the M8, and I'll definitely be doing some M8 vs. M6 comparisons just so that I really understand the differences. However, having learned that my intentions are not always taken as they're intended, I probably won't be posting my results anywhere within these hallowed halls (can't guarantee that, though). So ... I look forward to trading insights with you and others here on the Film Forum. Cheers for now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker Posted September 20, 2007 Share #25 Posted September 20, 2007 Whoops! Was I that obvious? Sorry about that. It is a turbulent time in the M8 world, and it'll probably take a while to settle down. There seems to be an incredible amount of resistance to the idea of a digital M, and M8 adopters take a lot of flak from people who really haven't bothered to do the research. They can, as a result, get a little defensive. But on the whole I don't think it adds up to general intolerance. And the camera really does deliver some very, very impressive output. There's no doubt about that. But ... it ain't film. Film and digital are just two different animals. If you like working with film, and like the look, I sincerely doubt that you'd be satisfied with with digital alone. I've come to the conclusion that I need both. I dug out some old B&W negs that I shot about 30 years ago and scanned and printed some of the best and, as you say, there's a vibe with film that is somethiing special. I have absolutely no argument with that at all. But digital has it's place, and will continue to take a more and more prominent role in mainstream imaging. My approach is that, rather than taking sides (and being an inveterate geek), I just want to know what the various media can do firsthand. The whole thing is so subjective that it would be unrealistic, if not arrogant, to claim that one way of doing things is better than the other. I'm constantly comparing this and that, but only to determine what works for me, as opposed to trying to force "The Gospel" down other people's throats. Admittedly there are digital (M8) bigots, as there are film bigots (and Canon bigots, and Nikon bigots, etc, etc.), but fortunately that's not everyone. I kinda doubt that it's even the majority. But anyway, I'm getting back into film a bit myself, primarily for B&W. But I won't be abandoning the M8, and I'll definitely be doing some M8 vs. M6 comparisons just so that I really understand the differences. However, having learned that my intentions are not always taken as they're intended, I probably won't be posting my results anywhere within these hallowed halls (can't guarantee that, though). So ... I look forward to trading insights with you and others here on the Film Forum. Cheers for now. Kent - thank you for a very balanced and mature perspective. Best wishes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted September 20, 2007 Share #26 Posted September 20, 2007 Kent - I certainly agree with what you say here, and I wasn't meaning to 'take sides' either. Possibly I ought to give some context to my M8-dismissive comments, because I'm definitely not a luddite or anti-digital on principle (far from it). I work in advertising, so I daily look at (and occasionally edit or retouch) digital images from various sources. I'm therefore very aware of what is possible from various cameras and formats (in effect, limited to Canon and Hasselblad in practice). I therefore feel qualified to dismiss a very great deal of what is said on the M8 forum as complete and utter bullsh*t - and for a while I would say so. Nowadays I tend to just keep my own counsel and allow people who are reassuring themselves that their $5000 was well-spent to listen to their fellow M8 owners' mutual endorsement. However - don't misunderstand me - I DO think that the M8 is an excellent camera, and somewhere down the road (with the M9?) I'll probably jump back on the digital wagon - but digital will never replace film for me again, as I thought it had done five years ago. Incidentally, as stated above, the images we use are almost all from Canons or (as we're in Sweden) a high proportion of Hasselblad shots. I've never met any pro photographer with an M8, as yet - although the ones I meet when I have my M6 or M7 with me are full of admiration for those analog models anyway.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted September 20, 2007 Share #27 Posted September 20, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Has film been abandoned by Leica owners to this extent? Can you handle the truth? Yes, just as it has been almost abandoned by almost everyone. But even if that were not the case, there are a lot fewer glitches and issues with film Leicas than the M8, not to mention that many people switching to digital on Leica's timetable are also just now having to re-learn an entirely new process which only starts with the camera and the majority occurs in the quagmire known as post-processing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted September 20, 2007 Share #28 Posted September 20, 2007 Can you handle the truth? Yes, just as it has been almost abandoned by almost everyone. How is that the truth? It may be YOUR version of the truth based upon your limited knowledge. For your information, film sales have started to level out, in a recent poll sent to Pro's by Kodak 60% said they prefer film, and will continue to use it. Go to APUG forums there are quite a few users there probably an order of magnitude more than use the M8. So film may not be the number one image carrier, but has been far from abandoned!! Photo Utopia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 20, 2007 Share #29 Posted September 20, 2007 ...the quagmire known as post-processing. This is a loaded word. Sure you have to learn new skills, but you had to do the same when you were learning to print in a darkroom. I can't recall anyone ever refering to "the quagmire known as a wet darkroom". Believe it or not I actually enjoy the post process errr process. It beats having to scan the firm first anyday <grin> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StS Posted September 20, 2007 Share #30 Posted September 20, 2007 Simple choice for me - film for fun, digital for practical purposes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 20, 2007 Share #31 Posted September 20, 2007 hehe - I guess you mean me? But seriously - it's not ill-will, but there's definitely a spirit of intolerance on the M8 forum that frankly often leaves a bad after-taste (take a look at the discussion there on the 'M8 in the desert' right now - it appears that raw obscenity is acceptable - when it's in defense of the M8, that is). . I wil check this out with my "mod" hat on... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted September 20, 2007 Share #32 Posted September 20, 2007 How is that the truth? It may be YOUR version of the truth based upon your limited knowledge. A defencive, snarky lead-off is a sure indication that what follows will most certainly be a pile of fabrications and rubbish in a recent poll sent to Pro's by Kodak 60% said they prefer film, and will continue to use it. Surely you are much too intelligent to infer from that "poll" that those pros will use film more than occasionally. Go to APUG forums there are quite a few users there probably an order of magnitude more than use the M8. Go to a cemetery at any time and you'll find an order of magnitude more dead people than live people. So film may not be the number one image carrier, but has been far from abandoned!! I have hundreds of film cameras and I love them to death and still shoot a fair bit of film. But your assertions are beyond fantastic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted September 20, 2007 Share #33 Posted September 20, 2007 "A defencive, snarky lead-off is a sure indication that what follows will most certainly be a pile of fabrications and rubbish" not defencive (sic) but rather incisive "Surely you are much too intelligent (Sic) to infer from that "poll" that those pros will use film more than occasionally." Surely you are far too intelligent to realise that occasional use is not the abandonment you infer. "Go to a cemetery at any time and you'll find an order of magnitude more dead people than live people" I'm not sure what you mean by this sick statement (you think film users are dead) maybe you'd like to withdraw that statement before your ban? " have hundreds of film cameras and I love them to death and still shoot a fair bit of film. But your assertions are beyond fantastic" You last statement backs up my assertion that although film is no longer the main carrier that it still will have a niche market of people who understand its positive characteristics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 20, 2007 Share #34 Posted September 20, 2007 Go to a cemetery at any time and you'll find an order of magnitude more dead people than live people. I live in a town of about 25,000 people. Are you telling me that the local cemetery has around 250,000 people in it? I've been there and there must be a lot of people hiding somewhere. Of course I'm assuming you know what an order of magnitude is, if that's not the case I apologise but you should look on it as a learning experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted September 20, 2007 Share #35 Posted September 20, 2007 Er, ah, no Steve, in your eagerness to chime in with a patronising remark it seems you failed to stop long enough to comprehend my statement. Unless of course in your town the living congregate at the local cemetery other than a few at a time to visit family graves. Perhaps my expectations were unrealistic, so let me spell out my point without any analogies...if you go someplace dedicated to film users (such as APUG) they will of course be in the majority, but that doesn't prove anything w.r.t. the number of film users in the world at-large. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted September 20, 2007 Share #36 Posted September 20, 2007 I'm not sure what you mean by this sick statement (you think film users are dead) maybe you'd like to withdraw that statement before your ban? Why would I withdraw that statement or be banned simply because you failed to comprehend it? See above for the Cliff's Notes explanation. Here we have a forum dedicated to Leica, the last bastion of small-format film photography, and as the OP pointed out there are always many times more people on the digital forum. If this specific sub-forum would be renamed "Film Users Fantasy-Land" then I would have known better than to respond to the OP's question truthfully lest it unleash an emotionally-charged flaming. I'm most assuredly not on a campaign to evangelise die-hard film users nor deny them their right to denial. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 20, 2007 Share #37 Posted September 20, 2007 Vinay Please read your PMs. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted September 20, 2007 Share #38 Posted September 20, 2007 . Perhaps my expectations were unrealistic, so let me spell out my point without any analogies...if you go someplace dedicated to film users (such as APUG) they will of course be in the majority, but that doesn't prove anything w.r.t. the number of film users in the world at-large. Yes but surely you can join the dots... If there is a dedicated film site like APUG and that community is thriving wouldn't that would mean that film has not been abandoned? Anyhow I'm with Tom and Mary grave mutterings M4-P APX 100 (noted moderator so this is my last post) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted September 20, 2007 Share #39 Posted September 20, 2007 Yes but surely you can join the dots...If there is a dedicated film site like APUG and that community is thriving wouldn't that would mean that film has not been abandoned? Absolutely. If we agree on the definition of 'abandoned' as being in absolute terms, then Daguerrotype has not been abandoned either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddp Posted September 20, 2007 Share #40 Posted September 20, 2007 I like the word snarky.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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