Do you resample before to print?

[Dennis]

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I found this old post and started to read it. But it's more than ten years ago. Are things changed?

 

I'm discovering the powerful tool of how to resample for print. I knew the technology was there but had never tried before, until last week. Especially, I'm learning these days about the difference between:

• Super Resolution - to double the size of a raw/dng file
• Preserve details 2.0 (I tried up to 200%)

With your files you know you will print, do you resample the raw or the exported file for specific sizes? Is it always helpful? I know the details of a native 47MP file will always be 'better' than a 24MP resampled. But hey, technology made some significant steps concerning IQ. 

Logically, if the resample quality is excellent, why don't you use it all the time? 🤔

 

 

 

 

[Dennis]

Is there anyone who wants to share their opinion? 

[pedaes]

On 7/5/2022 at 8:19 PM, Dennis said:

do you resample

Simple answer - no. No issues with just LrC Print Module or Epson Print Layout (prefered option for me) up to A2 from 24mp. What size are you talking about? You might find some good advice here https://www.northlight-images.co.uk/resampling-to-make-your-images-bigger/

Edited July 11, 2022 by pedaes

[Dennis]

7 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Simple answer - no. No issues with just LrC Print Module or Epson Print Layout (prefered option for me) up to A2 from 24mp. What size are you talking about? You might find some good advice here https://www.northlight-images.co.uk/resampling-to-make-your-images-bigger/

 I will definitely take a look at your suggestion, I appreciate it.

FWIK, so far, the rule of thumb is something like this.

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I know that a 24MP (6000x4000) file I can print a perfect 12x18 (inch). While a 16x24 would be maybe (let's say) not perfect, but superb. A 32x48 not superb but just great, and so on. With a Q2M file, I'm sure I can print 24x36 and it will be perfect.

But what if I want to make a 24x36 from an M10 file? If the picture has great details, is sharp, do I need the upsample or not? Or better do I have to forget about this size for an M10 file? The same of I want to print a 40x60 from a Q2M. Is it possible?

This is my big doubt....

P.s. All my "calculations" are made based always on a 300dpi file.

[Jeff S]

I let ImagePrint do all the work for me.

Jeff

[zeitz]

I am in the US so I print in inches.  I just go to Image Size in Photoshop, set the printed image size in inches and set the dpi to 300.  Resample/Automatic is checked.  I save in .psd; some prefer .tif.  I set the paper size in Canon Print and Layout.app.

[Dennis]

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1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

I let ImagePrint do all the work for me.

Jeff

Is this software? https://www.colorbytesoftware.com/imageprint_black.shtml#pricing_b

Does it really worth the price? It looks expensive

12 minutes ago, zeitz said:

I just go to Image Size in Photoshop, set the printed image size in inches and set the dpi to 300.  Resample/Automatic is checked

Do you do this under certain limits? I mean, if your file is big enough, are you still doing this procedure?

[Jeff S]

31 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Is this software? https://www.colorbytesoftware.com/imageprint_black.shtml#pricing_b

Does it really worth the price? It looks expensive

 

Yes, and yes, for me. I’ve written extensively about its benefits in various threads here over the years.  The excellent paper profiles, included for virtually all papers and lighting conditions, is alone worth the cost to me; less expensive than custom profiling gear and without the labor.  But the real benefit is in the print workflow, optimized settings/controls, full time soft proofing and not having to deal with color management issues or the Epson/Apple/Adobe chain and related software surprises. 
 

I care about print workflow and results, and IP provides a bigger bang for the buck for me than buying some fancy new piece of Leica gear, which many here seem to do without blinking.  And I still spend less in PP than in my darkroom days.  Of course YMMV.
 

Jeff

[zeitz]

4 hours ago, Dennis said:

Do you do this under certain limits? I mean, if your file is big enough, are you still doing this procedure?

The largest printer I have had is 17 in wide.  (I would like to move to a 24 in printer soon because I like large prints.)  This procedure produces excellent prints, 17 in wide, even with Leica M8 and Nikon D2x files.

[pedaes]

11 hours ago, Dennis said:

300dpi file.

You do not need 300dpi for larger prints - you will not see difference with 180 as you view from further away. 

Have you printed a A3+ print from 24mp with no adjustment? Assuming you are starting from a sound image, processed through ,say, Topaz AI Sharpener if required.

[zeitz]

4 hours ago, pedaes said:

Have you printed a A3+ print from 24mp with no adjustment? Assuming you are starting from a sound image, processed through ,say, Topaz AI Sharpener if required.

So A3+ is 13 x 19 in inches.  24mp is 4000 x 6000 pixels.  At 13 x 19, that is 300 dpi.

The specifications for the Canon iPF 1000 (17 in x 25.5 in) say the printer can have print resolution up to 1200 dpi x 2400 dpi.  I am not exactly sure what that means.  And I am not sure that a 144 dpi image will not look exactly the same as a 300 dpi image when printed.  But I continue to use 300 dpi.

I have 17 in x 25.5 in prints from Leica M8, Leica M9, Nikon D2x, Nikon D5, Nikon D810 and Nikon Z9 cameras hanging in my "gallery".  No one can tell what camera the print came from.  Prints from an iPhone do standout because I find it hard to get the color right.  The largest raw files I have printed are from a Phase One iQ4 150 mp camera.  These prints also stand out.  It is not because of resolution at 17 in x 25.5 in; it is because of tonality.

I never make any print without adjustments.  I have Topaz AI Sharpener, but I only use it when there is a technical error in the file.  I set Clarity to 25 in Camera Raw.

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, zeitz said:

So A3+ is 13 x 19 in inches.  24mp is 4000 x 6000 pixels.  At 13 x 19, that is 300 dpi.

Exactly - it is all you need!

[Dennis]

7 hours ago, pedaes said:

You do not need 300dpi for larger prints - you will not see difference with 180 as you view from further away. 

Got it. I thought 300 dpi was 'always' needed or highly recommended for many sizes. Then I understood that a billboard has a very low dpi and you can print it from a very low resolution file, because it's always about view distance...

For example, an M10 file ...

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 I guess I can print a 36x24 w/o any extra adjustment such upsampling or a sharpening software, right? Superb, around 150 dpi at 7ft distance view, should be enough.

If I have a 12MP file that I want to print, maybe the 'superb' it will be 20x30, and so on.

It's a new world for me, but I'm starting to see things w/ more clarity now. Thank you for your time

 

[zeitz]

24 minutes ago, Dennis said:

If I have a 12MP file that I want to print, maybe the 'superb' it will be 20x30

I think folks routinely printed 24x36 in from Leica M8 files which are 10.3 mp.  There should be old postings on this topic somewhere in the Forum.  When I can print that big, I will still set Clarity to 25 in Camera Raw and use Automatic Resample with 300 dpi when I set the Image Size in Photoshop.  Other than Clarity I don't do anymore sharpening.  As I said previously I only use Sharpen AI when the file has an issue.  I would only change the 25 and 300 dpi workflow if I notice an issue.

[Dennis]

2 hours ago, zeitz said:

I think folks routinely printed 24x36 in from Leica M8 files which are 10.3 mp.  

Yes, I know. I would love to see how they turned out. Until I see one sample in person, I can make decisions.

2 hours ago, zeitz said:

I would only change the 25 and 300 dpi workflow if I notice an issue.

Correct. It's the file is perfect for print (at given size) no need for further actions, right?

.

FWIU, a 20MP file (for example a cropped M10 file at 5500px) can be printed in 24x36 size w/o any extra 'help' ... No sharpening, upsampling or AI push. Of course always respecting the recommended view distance. 

 

[pedaes]

34 minutes ago, Dennis said:

No sharpening, upsampling or AI push.

To get a 'good' print you need a good file. Sharpening etc. may be needed depending of course on the subject, your camera skills and the look you are after - dreamy soft through to a technical subject like a piece of machinery.

Did you have a look at the Northlight Images website? There is a fantastic amount of sound advice there on printing if you search for it - both written (the most comprehensive) and video (covering key points) with examples - all free!

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by pedaes

[zeitz]

17 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Correct. It's the file is perfect for print (at given size) no need for further actions, right?

Dennis, here is my workflow.  I always take these steps.

- While I shoot raw + jpeg, I only work with raw files.  I use Adobe RGB.  I use 16 bit color depth.

- I open the file folder in Bridge.  I look at the images, often with the magnifying glass tool.  I select the file I want to print.

- I double click on it.  The file opens in Camera Raw.  I do most of my processing in Camera Raw.  Camera Raw = Develop in Lightroom

- I go to Profiles and look at the color that results from the various Adobe profiles, manufacturer profiles, and custom profiles I make.  I pick the result I like best.

- I always adjust Texture, Clarity and Vibrance. Sometimes I adjust Dehaze.

- I almost always adjust Highlights/Shadows/Whites/Blacks for the tonality I want.  I then finalize Exposure/Contrast.  (I am still working in color even though I want a B&W print.)

- I Open in Photoshop.

- I adjust the horizon if needed.  I crop as needed.

- I go to Image/Image Size . . . and I set the size of the image to be printed on the paper.  I set the dimensions in inches, I make sure the sure the dpi is 300.  I make sure the Resampling is set to Automatic.

- If there are some issues at this point, I go to Filter/Camera Raw Filter . . . and make the fixes.  Other issues (dust, things in the image I want removed) may be fixed with the Healing Brush or the Clone Tool.  Other issues may be fixed with the Dodge/Burn tool.

- If I am desperate to fix a bad image (out of focus or camera shake), I use Photoshop Filters/Sharpen or AI Sharpen.

- If I am converting to B&W, I go to Layers/New Adjustment Layer/Black and White . . .   I manipulate the six color sliders to get the tonality I desire.  (Sometimes I use Nik Silver Efex if I want a specific Silver Efex profile.)

- I always then go to Layers/New Adjustment Layer/Brightness & Contrast  . . . to fix the "prints too light" tendency.

- I then save this file as a .psd.  Being a .psd file, all the layers are preserved and I can easily go back and make corrections if I don't like the print.

- I am now ready to print.  I go to Edit/Convert to Profile and apply the profile for the paper I plan to use.   I rename the file so I have a printable file, separate from the .psd file and save the print file.  (Note at the point when Jeff is ready to print, he uses ImagePrint to avoid all this conversion.  Since I only use three papers, I use custom profiles prepared by my Canon Value Added Dealer.)  (Also note that if you use a Canon dye ink printer, you can't do this because you can't use Canon Print Studio and Layout.  Only Canon pigment ink printers use Canon Print Studio and Layout.)

- I open the print file in Canon's software.  I set the paper size and make sure the image is positioned where I want it on the paper, usually centered.  (I make sure the printer driver in Photoshop is set the same way.  I make sure the printer is set the same way.)  I then make sure Print without Applying Profile is set so the paper profile is not applied twice.

- I now hit the Print icon.

I never skip any of there steps for images I plan to hang is my "gallery".

 

 

[Dennis]

3 hours ago, pedaes said:

To get a 'good' print you need a good file.

Yes! This resumes everything 🏆

3 hours ago, pedaes said:

Did you have a look at the Northlight Images website?

Yes, I did. Very interesting stuff. I read a couple articles. And I saved this video in Watch Later: it's the first on the list 🙂 

 

3 hours ago, zeitz said:

Dennis, here is my workflow.  I always take these steps.

Thank you so much for sharing. It's always interesting to know and understand a different workflow. I'm following you until "I am now ready to print." ... I don't have a printer, and my knowledge of the best print practice is dreadful. I just started to dive into this world.

My goal so far is only to prepare the best file possible to print. Then someone else will take care of the process. Although it's a fascinating world, and one can shoot, print, and hang out a beautiful picture in a few hours (DIY), I guess I could not enjoy the print process.
Step by step...

.

Quoting Ansel Adams: "The negative is the equivalent of the composer's score, and the print the performance."

 

 

[pippy]

On 7/11/2022 at 9:19 PM, Dennis said:

...I know that a 24MP (6000x4000) file I can print a perfect 12x18 (inch)...But what if I want to make a 24x36 from an M10 file? If the picture has great details, is sharp, do I need the upsample or not?...

To give you some hope of maintaining some degree of sanity, Dennis, I'd like to say that recently I've made A3 prints from a snap taken using the M Monochrom (18Mp) where the image-area was a 'landscape' crop from the 'portrait' original DNG file. Putting it in '35mm fim' terms; instead of using the whole 24mm wide x 36mm high image-frame I was using 24mm wide but only 16mm high. This is, in effect, making an A3 print from an 8Mp file.

No resampling was required; prints were produced using a med-level Canon Photo Printer and the results are superb.

One extremely important - but oft-overlooked - factor when producing 'Fine Art' prints is the quality of the paper stock used for the end product. If you haven't yet delved deep into the difference between using a usual suspects "Premium Photo Quality" paper and that of a seriously genuine high-quality photo paper you will most likely be surprised to discover that the difference is (probably) far more than you might at first have imagined could be possible.

Best of luck!

Philip.

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[Dennis]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

recently I've made A3 prints from a snap taken using the M Monochrom (18Mp) This is, in effect, making an A3 print from an 8Mp file.

1 hour ago, pippy said:

To give you some hope of maintaining some degree of sanity, Dennis

Thank you so much for your help, Philip... But due to my recent deep-diving into the dpi and prints quality, I'm honestly starting to lose already sanity.
Wow, an 8MP file printed in A3 keeps my hope alive. I mean, the hope to don't use any 'extra' help apart from having a good file (as Pedaes said above). This is my goal. This would make me happy.
.
I like the range of A3-A1 sizes, and I'm sure I don't want to print larger than that. Smaller either. SO, ideally, If the file is good enough, I should achieve 'superb' results with my M10 and Q2M files for these sizes. But I have some files that are less than 12MP. Fortunately, they are 300 dpi. I guess no problem to print in 12x18. But what about I want to print it larger?
This is a sample of the picture I took in Switzerland a few years ago with an X100s, heavily cropped. Maybe similar resolution of your snap.

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The print should be (according to the reference above) amazing or superb at 3ft viewing distance. Great, fine or ok would not be good enough for me unless a longest distance view is needed. 

I need to start tests soon before losing the remaining 95% of my sanity. This 3401 x 2267 at 300 dpi file should be still superb in 16x24 size.

I'm very tempted to print some tests at WhiteWall or BayPhoto labs and understand the whole scenario, not just theoretically. No professional options where I live. I need to fly to Mexico City.

1 hour ago, pippy said:

One extremely important - but oft-overlooked - factor when producing 'Fine Art' prints is the quality of the paper stock used for the end product.

YES, I know. I studied a lot these days, and I have already my (theoretically) choice. Just need to confirm it hands-on

Thank you so much!