I love my M11 hardware but I'm really struggling with image quality. Any advice?

[cbgrey]

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12 hours ago, M Journey said:

Also, when shooting outdoors, many have suggested to not use auto white balance as the setting for that isn’t optimal.  I use sunny for outdoors and auto for indoors.

I am happy to share my preset if you want to check it out.  It’s nothing fancy but works for me.

This matches up with a bit of what I've seen...I have to adjust the WB quite a bit sometimes. I'll look at this closer. 

I'd love to see your preset if you don't mind sharing. I'd likely learn something from it. 

[Kwesi]

36 minutes ago, cbgrey said:

I'm very happy that the results in the album look good (IQ wise) to many of you. What isn't expressed in the results is how much work it took to get there. 

Perhaps the issue is occurring at the capture stage, which can be caused by a host of variables including choice of metering pattern.

Maybe post a before and after of an M11 image that you are happy with

[fcracer]

2 hours ago, cbgrey said:

I really appreciate everyone's time in looking at my images and providing feedback. 

I'm very happy that the results in the album look good (IQ wise) to many of you. What isn't expressed in the results is how much work it took to get there. 

I fully acknowledge that this is a "me" problem not a camera problem if that wasn't clear from my original post. I really love the M11.

Part of my frustration is feeling like I went through this same issue when I moved to Sony mirrorless for 6 years (between Nikon DSLRs and Nikon Z systems). I always struggled trying to get the results I liked from Sony. With Nikon Z...it only took some tweaking out of camera for me to get there. I'd stay with Nikon Z but really want the compactness of a Leica system. 

In the end, some of you said maybe I just need more time with the M11 and that's likely true. 

Here’s a very simple Capture One workflow that works well for me. With a few clicks, the image is already drastically improved and just needs minor tweaks to personalize it: Efficient Capture One Workflow

[idusidusi]

1 hour ago, fcracer said:

Here’s a very simple Capture One workflow that works well for me. With a few clicks, the image is already drastically improved and just needs minor tweaks to personalize it: Efficient Capture One Workflow

Very interesting thanks!

[M Journey]

12 hours ago, cbgrey said:

This matches up with a bit of what I've seen...I have to adjust the WB quite a bit sometimes. I'll look at this closer. 

I'd love to see your preset if you don't mind sharing. I'd likely learn something from it. 

here are three of the presets that I used.  On my recent trip where I took over 3,000 snaps outdoors, I would apply one of these three to most images and call it a day.  I'm new to Leica and post processing and am sure that I will be creating much better tuned presets in the future but these meet my needs at the moment.  The m 35 apo is my only lens so these presents might be biased to how that lens renders on the m11.  Your results may vary.

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VkSuBlyFasoN0rmnmJo-wAw1t6mgAM6T?usp=sharing

 

[M Journey]

Here is a fun little post that shows how much a photo can change based on post processing:  

 

 

[Overgaard]

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16 hours ago, idusidusi said:

I took your image into C1, applied Color Overgaard Film Look Warmer 6300K. I am no expert either, and this is all very subjective and different to everyone's taste. This would be my result and additionally I made the small changes in the screenshot in C1.

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16 hours ago, idusidusi said:

I took your image into C1, applied Color Overgaard Film Look Warmer 6300K. I am no expert either, and this is all very subjective and different to everyone's taste. This would be my result and additionally I made the small changes in the screenshot in C1.

good idea, but you cannot really apply that to a JPG and expect good results. I feel that the originals are rightly a bit flat, and the edits with my preset (made for RAW files) and the one other post above with edited JPG, both lack details and have to hard contrast. 

@cbgrey I think your original import and edit is the reason it may seem a bit flat. The kelvin has to be adjusted, and then the contrast, shadow details to get it right. 

The example is exposed for the bright wall, so everything else gets a little dull and dark. Bad starting point, but it could be made to look good. 

You're welcome to wetransfer-dot-com this file and a couple other to me at thorsten@overgaard.dk and I'll swing them by what "I usually do"  and we'll see. 

Just finishing an article about the colors of M11, so not really much short or small comments on it to spill here. 

[idusidusi]

5 hours ago, Overgaard said:

 

good idea, but you cannot really apply that to a JPG and expect good results. I feel that the originals are rightly a bit flat, and the edits with my preset (made for RAW files) and the one other post above with edited JPG, both lack details and have to hard contrast. 

@cbgrey I think your original import and edit is the reason it may seem a bit flat. The kelvin has to be adjusted, and then the contrast, shadow details to get it right. 

The example is exposed for the bright wall, so everything else gets a little dull and dark. Bad starting point, but it could be made to look good. 

You're welcome to wetransfer-dot-com this file and a couple other to me at thorsten@overgaard.dk and I'll swing them by what "I usually do"  and we'll see. 

Just finishing an article about the colors of M11, so not really much short or small comments on it to spill here. 

Yes I know but as I only could download a JPG, I thought I would try. On the RAW files I have your presets work very well.

[cbgrey]

12 hours ago, M Journey said:

here are three of the presets that I used.  On my recent trip where I took over 3,000 snaps outdoors, I would apply one of these three to most images and call it a day.  I'm new to Leica and post processing and am sure that I will be creating much better tuned presets in the future but these meet my needs at the moment.  The m 35 apo is my only lens so these presents might be biased to how that lens renders on the m11.  Your results may vary.

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VkSuBlyFasoN0rmnmJo-wAw1t6mgAM6T?usp=sharing

 

Thank you for sharing these @M Journey I'll give them a try. 

[cbgrey]

Interestingly.... on a lark, I tried Capture One (I've been a LR user forever) and had a much easier time getting the results I was after. Hm. 

I'm not really looking to change workflows but I'm curious why the difference. Maybe LR just isn't "ready" for the M11. 

[cbgrey]

34 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

It's not the arrow...

I very clearly said it's not the camera's problem but mine.

I'm trying to understand the differences in tonality between the M10 and M11 to get better at my post processing. 

There very much is a difference and I'm having difficulty with that difference though thanks to other's helpful replies I'm making progress. 

[cbgrey]

14 hours ago, Overgaard said:

 

good idea, but you cannot really apply that to a JPG and expect good results. I feel that the originals are rightly a bit flat, and the edits with my preset (made for RAW files) and the one other post above with edited JPG, both lack details and have to hard contrast. 

@cbgrey I think your original import and edit is the reason it may seem a bit flat. The kelvin has to be adjusted, and then the contrast, shadow details to get it right. 

The example is exposed for the bright wall, so everything else gets a little dull and dark. Bad starting point, but it could be made to look good. 

You're welcome to wetransfer-dot-com this file and a couple other to me at thorsten@overgaard.dk and I'll swing them by what "I usually do"  and we'll see. 

Just finishing an article about the colors of M11, so not really much short or small comments on it to spill here. 

Thank you very much for the advice and the offer, @Overgaard Looking forward to your article. 

[LBJ2]

5 hours ago, cbgrey said:

Interestingly.... on a lark, I tried Capture One (I've been a LR user forever) and had a much easier time getting the results I was after. Hm. 

I'm not really looking to change workflows but I'm curious why the difference. Maybe LR just isn't "ready" for the M11. 

With regards to raw files, yes, each of these raw editors can translate raw image data to determine resulting color/skin tones up to very differently. Can be shocking when you import the same raw image through multiple editors and then compare the results side by side before touching one slider or adjustment. 

Equally important is the profile selected in the raw editor too. E.g., in the case of LR: Adobe Color, vs Adobe Standard vs Camera Matching profiles etc.. Click around on these profiles and you can sometimes see up to dramatic color and skin tone effects too, again even before touching one slider or any other adjustment. 

* the above applies to raw image files 

** color management begins before you press the shutter, but the editor and/or profile used is often where skin tones and colors are applied upon import.  

 

[Overgaard]

Thanks for sending the DNG version @cbgrey. So far from Capture One (I sent you the session file with all of the edits) and will swing it by LR tomorrow. Interesting to work with others' files because there is a starting point and ideal for taking it (and expecting to get something). 

Here's a few to get feedback from you, but perhaps others would tell which one they would prefer personally:

Original unedited DNG (5000 kelvin, 1600 ISO)

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Fundamentally the "problem" with the file is that the white background wall gets all the light and the subject is in the foreground and gets under-exposed (relatively to the wall). I lifted the shadows, added contrast and lowered Highlights (the wall) to get some balance back in it. 

Edited with different rulers in Capture One without use of any Styles (6200 Kelvin)

Edited with my Style "Color Overgaard Film Look Warmer 6300K" (6300 Kelvin) and "Color Overgaad Skintone Adjust for Leica":

Cropped and lines straightened:

Black and white version of this with my Style "BW Overgaard Leica Tones No 2"

[cbgrey]

4 hours ago, Overgaard said:

Thanks for sending the DNG version @cbgrey. So far from Capture One (I sent you the session file with all of the edits) and will swing it by LR tomorrow. Interesting to work with others' files because there is a starting point and ideal for taking it (and expecting to get something). 

Here's a few to get feedback from you, but perhaps others would tell which one they would prefer personally:

Original unedited DNG (5000 kelvin, 1600 ISO)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

Fundamentally the "problem" with the file is that the white background wall gets all the light and the subject is in the foreground and gets under-exposed (relatively to the wall). I lifted the shadows, added contrast and lowered Highlights (the wall) to get some balance back in it. 

Edited with different rulers in Capture One without use of any Styles (6200 Kelvin)

Edited with my Style "Color Overgaard Film Look Warmer 6300K" (6300 Kelvin) and "Color Overgaad Skintone Adjust for Leica":

Cropped and lines straightened:

Black and white version of this with my Style "BW Overgaard Leica Tones No 2"

Thanks so much for taking the time to do these @OvergaardI'm learning a lot from this thread. 

[cbgrey]

In large part to all the help I've gotten from this group, I feel like I've made a lot of progress on editing my M11 files. Thank you. 

I can't put into words what I've learned but I've gotten a better feel for it....like learning to ride a bike (again). 

 

 

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[Kwesi]

2 hours ago, cbgrey said:

In large part to all the help I've gotten from this group, I feel like I've made a lot of progress on editing my M11 files. Thank you. 

I can't put into words what I've learned but I've gotten a better feel for it....like learning to ride a bike (again). 

 

 

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Glad you are getting the hang of it.

Its really a great sensor to work with.

[Tailwagger]

On 3/15/2022 at 8:47 AM, cbgrey said:

I can't put into words what I've learned but I've gotten a better feel for it....like learning to ride a bike (again)

Few, if any, cameras produce their best results SooC. A new to you camera demands a grace period where time is  spent understanding how to best shape the raw result into a final one.  In the end this is largely a matter of personal taste given the capabilities of our processing tools are so great at this point that with a little understanding and work one can craft virtually whatever look one wants these days. But in my experience, every new M (and any other camera as well) I've owned has required some altering of my working assumptions on how to expose and process for the best result. 

It is the tenor of our times that some people often exhibit little patience for this process assuming they are already expert enough to avoid it. Any initial disappointment therefore must be the fault of the camera rather than a personal lack of understanding or skill to wield it. The reality is that as the specs and capabilities change, from metering to pixel count, one has to be willing to reboot one's mindset regarding how to get the optimum results, both front and back. There is always a learning curve and, as with most such exercises, there will undoubtedly be moments of frustration along the way.

I certainly sympathize with the desire for simple answers to complicated questions (is the M11 better than the M10, should I buy one, is 60 Mpx a step backward, etc),  but no matter how good the tea, you can't make a satisfactory cup by dunking the bag once, taking a single sip and coming to judgement.  To brew something satisfying requires time to steep. Bravo for having the patience. Not everyone does. Enjoy!

[Overgaard]

On 3/15/2022 at 8:47 AM, cbgrey said:

In large part to all the help I've gotten from this group, I feel like I've made a lot of progress on editing my M11 files. Thank you. 

I can't put into words what I've learned but I've gotten a better feel for it....like learning to ride a bike (again). 

 

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Yes, this one is top excellent. Well done.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[cbgrey]

15 hours ago, Overgaard said:

Yes, this one is top excellent. Well done.

Well, thank you! High praise coming from you.