Range finder patch magnifier

[lburn]

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Together with the M10 I use a Leica IIIG.  That camera has the two viewfinder windows alongside each other, the second window giving a clear, large, magnified view of the rangefinder patch for use when critical focusing is essential. It is very quick and very good.  I wonder if it will be possible for Leica to modify the M10’s successor to incorporate a similar device? I realise the modern rangefinder is very complex already but maybe the technology is there now to deal with such a modification?  I also realise that you can buy a magnifier (4x?) which screws into the eyepiece to magnify the focusing patch for critical focus with longer lenses, but, in my opinion having briefly tried one, it is reduces contrast considerably and is cumbersome in that you have to carry it with you and then screw it on and off every time you need it.  The IIIG solution is quick, unobtrusive and very effective.  I think such a development, if it could be done, would be a huge help in focusing 75mm  lenses and above and would fully preserve the rangefinder ethos of the M camera. If there is no room for a second viewfinder window, and I expect there is not, then a switch by the existing viewfinder to bring down the magnifier would be great, if it is possible.

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[UliWer]

Well, the screwmount Leicas from the II up to the IIIg had a viewfinder and a separate rangefinder. With the viewfinder you could not measure the exact focus, with the rangefinder you could not see the whole frame (of 50mm) as it had a strong 1.5 enlargement.

The  M integrated the rangefinder in the viewfinder - which was seen as an important progress (even though the Contax had it almost 20 years before). So to separate the viewfinder and the rangefinder again would mean going back to times before 1954 (the IIIg was introduced later, but it had the outdated separate system as of yore). 

If one wants a separate device for exact focussing, the electronic viewfinder could help in 2022. Though even now some  producers - like Fuji - manage to integrate an optical and an electronic viewfinder. Leica is still shy to do so since they believe (or say) that this would only integrate two second rate systems. 

[adan]

31 minutes ago, UliWer said:

The  M integrated the rangefinder in the viewfinder - which was seen as an important progress (even though the Contax had it almost 20 years before).

But not with the three automatically indexing framing lines (50/90/135) of the M3. Contax did have a coupled RFVF - but only for using the 50mm lens. Which is why the Zeiss CEO walked over to the Leitz CEO at the 1954 photokina, shook his hand, and said "YOU WIN!"  

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Probably possible to make a variable-magnification screw-in eyepiece, that could simply be left in place. I expect it would be rather large, or at least long 9sticking out from the camera back), because there has to be a lot of empty space in a variable optic, for the bits of glass to move around in (think of zoom lenses).

Not exactly what I would want on my M cameras.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/678907-USA/Zeiss_52_80_67_DiaScope_Vario_15_45x_20_60x_Eyepiece.html

Although I guess Leica Camera to talk to their old buddies over at Leica Microsystems about a "tunable eyepiece." Does require electric power, a controller chip, and oil (eewww!) in the optics.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-71507-8

 

[Anbaric]

13 hours ago, lburn said:

Together with the M10 I use a Leica IIIG.  That camera has the two viewfinder windows alongside each other, the second window giving a clear, large, magnified view of the rangefinder patch for use when critical focusing is essential. It is very quick and very good.  I wonder if it will be possible for Leica to modify the M10’s successor to incorporate a similar device? I realise the modern rangefinder is very complex already but maybe the technology is there now to deal with such a modification?

I think there's basically no chance of this happening. Leica made the switch to the combined viewfinder/rangefinder back in the 1950s, and aren't going to revert to the older system now. There probably won't be any further significant developments in optical rangefinder technology at this point - all the work is going in to improving electronic focusing systems. I suppose if there were enough demand, Leica might consider offering the digital M series cameras with a range of viewfinder magnifications, as they did with some of the film bodies. You used to be able to buy them with three different magnifications - the highest, 0.85x, was better for 50mm lenses and above, at the cost of leaving out the 28mm framelines.

[lburn]

14 hours ago, UliWer said:

to separate the viewfinder and the rangefinder again would mean going back to times before 1954 (the IIIg was introduced later, but it had the outdated separate system as of yore). 

If one wants a separate device for exact focussing, the electronic viewfinder could help in 2022. Though even now some  producers - like Fuji - manage to integrate an optical and an electronic viewfinder. Leica is still shy to do so since they believe (or say) that this would only integrate two second rate systems. 

I don't think Leica have any problem going back to earlier design features if they were good ones.  After all that is what they have done with significant features on the M10. And a separate device for exact focusing is what I believe Leica would wish to avoid if possible because it is less convenient and detracts from the simplicity of the camera ethos. That is why the clip on visoflex is something of a compromise, although I accept it is very useful for exact framing as well as focus. My point is that the integrated solution on the earlier cameras works very well and it gives the benefit of precise rangefinder focusing without the compromise of add on extras. The integrated viewfinder of the M10 is obviously excellent and a pleasure to use, but, it has to be accepted that it is not adequate for longer lenses (or fast ones wide open) which is why Leica introduced the screw on magnifier and the visoflex in the first place.

[adan]

BTW - when I used a IIIc in college, I rather liked the separate magnified RF window.

It made a good "aiming device" (even though a circular image) for a 135mm lens. The 135 lens framed a picture that matched an imaginary 2x3 rectangle inscribed inside the circle ([    ])

It should be noted, however, that the physical base-length of the Barnack-cameras' RF is very short (38mm). Therefore it had to have the separate window with 1.5x magnification. The Ms nearly doubled the physical base-length, so a 0.91x M3 or 0.85x M6 RF is actually more precise than a magnified Barnack RF, even though slightly less than "life-size."

Effective baselength (physical length x magnification) for those:

IIIf = 57mm
M3 = 63mm
M6 0.85x = 58.9mm

But indeed the Barnack RF is a bit better than the "standard" 0.72/73 RFVFs

M2/4/5/6/7/digital 0.72 (.73x) = 49.9mm (50.6mm)