M6 TTL and SF24 indoors / outdoors

[grahamc]

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Hello everyone , 

I'm looking for some tips for getting started using flash (SF24 at this point) with my M6 TTL.    The majority of this use at the moment would be in indoor, think a gig or club environment , but I'm also interested to give fill flash a try outdoors also.

So I had a couple of questions to get me started which I am hoping some help from the community.  Some of these may fall under 'basic' photography questions, so apologies in advance for that !   I'll be doing further research starting with the instruction manuals but would also appreciate any tips related to the following Q's please:

1. I plan to use the TTL function indoors .  It will be in a dark club / bar environment.  I'm a little confused about the very slow flash/shutter sync speed of the M6 being just 50/1.  For photographing movement (or even portraits/social photography) would the fact that I'm using flash still freeze the subject sharply at 50/1.  I assume yes but am a bit wary as to whether I'm going to get ghosting or blur due to this slow shutter speed.  Or does the fast nature of using the flash in a dark environment completely take care of this and I am over-thinking it?

2. Do different ISO rated film stocks perform better or worse in this use, in terms of making sure action is frozen at 50/1 .  eg 100 versus 800.  or again I could be missing the whole point and the TTL accounts for all of this .  But why not ask

3. It would be cool to hold the camera in one hand and angle the flash with another - this seems ambitious at 50/1 shutter speed, but once again does the nature of using flash and 'freezing' the scene overcome this risk and I needn't worry ?    

In short, I'm not quite 'getting' how practical the shutter speed is and the impact of the actual flash in reducing any of these risks .

My questions for outdoor photography are similar:

4. I'm even more suspisucous of how blurry or ghosty the images may come out at the 50/1 outside and with no darkness to 'hide' the milliseconds of the image that were exposed without the flash firing.  

5. To overcome this (if #4 is a valid point) , do we have the option to select say 125/1 shutter speed and run the flash in auto-mode.  Or will the flash not fire due to being faster than the sync (i assume it won't fire or there would be a shutter stripe in the shot) .   

6. again if you held the camera in one hand and flash in the other, surely these issues are multiplied - camera shake comes into play.  But I've seen plenty of street photographers working in this way so wanted to ask 

Overall I'm really struggling to see how useful the flash could be even for fill as 50/1 is not a speed I would usually shoot people at due to blur - and I presume this would still be evident particularly outside  

I know there is a lot of questions here so thank you in advance.  

Cheers

G 

Edited November 25, 2021 by grahamc

[stray cat]

Hi Graham,

I'm not sure I'm able to answer everything you've asked here, so my first and last recommendation would be to run a roll of film through the camera, simulating as best possible the situations you feel you'll encounter, and make notes about the different settings you'll use.

I use an M6TTL with both an SF-20 and a Metz 54 MZ-3 which has the correct Leica adapter (SCA 3502). Short answer is yes, you will get ghosting if your shutter speed/aperture is allowing ambient light to expose the film you're using. However, if you use a smaller f-stop, say f11 or f16, perhaps that will be sufficient to darken whatever is outside the range of your flash. Using faster ISO film will help to enable those smaller aperture openings, and give your flash a further effective reach, but will of course perhaps enable more ambient spill. The flash operates at some thousandths or ten thousandths of a second, so everything within the flash's range will be frozen still. The operation of holding the flash in one hand and the camera in the other won't alter the principles above, but may make shooting a little more awkward. I'd recommend watching videos of Bruce Gilden and how he operates on the streets, as he's a master at it.

You are stuck with 1/50 sec, 1/125 will give you a shutter shadow across half the frame.

If you look at enough pictures of Leicas + flash you'll likely find that there's a certain aesthetic there. Due to its restrictive shutter speed, Leica + flash pictures do have a unique look about them which you can embrace, rather than looking at it as a negative. After all there are plenty of other cameras that will give you much faster sync speeds if the Leicas aren't going to best meet your needs.

The M6TTL with flash gives great exposures with flashes that are correctly aligned with it, such as yours. I'd say play around with it, then decide if you like the look you're getting or whether something else might serve your purposes better. Please post some examples when you have them, though, because your ideas sound really interesting.

[grahamc]

Thanks a lot Phil, this is all very interesting and helpful 

That all makes complete sense and clears some things up - and has reminded me that yes of course the flash will freeze/sharpen everything as long as the ambient is dark enough .   There's definitely enough info here to get me started and I appreciate it .

For the indoor stuff I think I'll start with a 400 speed film (Tri-X, why not !) and stopped down to F11 with a 28mm or 35mm and see how it goes.  I'm sure with the TTL will be fine 

And for the outdoor stuff, I've just revisited some of Gilden's shots (it was indeed him that I was thinking of when I mentioned it, even though I have no intention of frightening old ladies to an inch off their lives in the street ).  Actually there is quite a lot of motion blur in some of his work, which makes complete sense considering the SS we are limited to .

I'll get into it and post something here in due course for fun .

Cheers again 

graham 

[madNbad]

You can also use the EV adjustment when using the flash outdoors if you just want more of a fill effect. I had one for years and used it with a M6 TTL. Other than the non adjustable reflector it's a nice little flash. The Nikon SC-17 or SC-28 will give you full TTL control with the flash off camera. The only difference between the two cords is the 28 has a locking foot. Sounds like a fun project. 

[grahamc]

5 hours ago, madNbad said:

You can also use the EV adjustment when using the flash outdoors if you just want more of a fill effect. I had one for years and used it with a M6 TTL. Other than the non adjustable reflector it's a nice little flash. The Nikon SC-17 or SC-28 will give you full TTL control with the flash off camera. The only difference between the two cords is the 28 has a locking foot. Sounds like a fun project. 

Thanks .  Ah yes good call, I'd forgotten about the Ev - I can use that indoors also I guess and experiment a bit.  I'd been planning to buy one of these Nikon cables for a while so will grab one, thanks for the reminder.

Looking forward to getting started.

Cheers again

g 

[grahamc]

On 11/26/2021 at 4:19 AM, madNbad said:

You can also use the EV adjustment when using the flash outdoors if you just want more of a fill effect. I had one for years and used it with a M6 TTL. Other than the non adjustable reflector it's a nice little flash. The Nikon SC-17 or SC-28 will give you full TTL control with the flash off camera. The only difference between the two cords is the 28 has a locking foot. Sounds like a fun project. 

Hi @madNbad

For a fill effect outdoors, I'm looking to get started with that .  Can you recommend the basics if possible please, as I don't really understand it. 

If the starting point for an ambient photograph is, say, a normally exposed image (with no flash) then when I add flash would I add TTL flash but dial down the flash exposure compensation so that it's subtle ?   I presume leaving it fire without flash exp compensation would wash out the Image perhaps 

Thanks for any help you can give.  

Cheers 
Graham 

 

[davidmknoble]

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It has been decades since I shot film with flash, but outdoors fill flash can be incredibly rewarding.  There are great books available (kindle or iBooks) that talk about fill flash. 

The first key typically is to start with the proper exposure for the ambient light.  Obviously, here that is with a shutter speed of 1/50 second or less. The second key is that opening the shutter speed will not do much because the timing of the flash is in milliseconds, not 10th or 100th seconds.  But, closing the f/stop slightly (underexposing) will darken the background vs the area covered by the flash.  This is personal preference, not necessary.  So, film speed also dictates the type of aperture you may be able to use.  Lower ISO will allow more open f/stops.

Then, the amount of flash is key.  For fill flash, either diffusing the flash, bouncing the flash and / or setting the power to a lower setting will help fill the shadows without overpowering the other areas of the image.

For me, practicing with digital cameras is incredibly helpful because of the fast feedback in reviewing changes.  I might think if that were available it would be easy to set to the film ISO, set things up and then mirror it with film, just to get practice and determine how you might move forward.

Just my thoughts.

[madNbad]

The above reply is great information. The biggest limitation with fill flash with a M film camera is the 1/50 sync speed. By adjusting the EV you will be able to brighten the scene without washing out the subject. Don’t worry about TTL, most of the work is done with the flash. It may take a roll to experiment but if you keep track of your settings, easy enough to repeat.

[grahamc]

Thanks @davidmknoble, Thanks @madNbad

I experimented with this yesterday (a film roll not digital, so will need to wait for the results).  I realised that even with the light meter indicates an over-exposed reading for the scene, the flash will still always fire when the shutter speed is set to 50/1 (lightening bolt symbol).   I wasn't expecting that (although probably should have), because I have another camera where the flash will only fire when needed (i.e. when the light meter indicates under-exposure).  

I presume this isn't the case with Leica and that the flash will always fire when a) flash is on camera and b) SS set to 50/1 or below ?  If this is the case I have realised I didn't fully understand the process indoors either as I had assumed that like my other camera the flash only fires when the scene is under-exposed.   

In a circumstance where the settings are such that the ambient image would already be correctly or over-exposed without adding fill, and then the flash fires .... Is it possible that the 'TTL' nature of the flash metering can save us in these situations ? ie the amount of fill added would potentially be minuscule due to the camera detecting an already correctly exposed or over-exposed image through the lens ?  

I don't mind the obviously 'flashy' point and shoot look so having a bright image is not an issue I just wonder now if I ruined them by washing them out.  Time will tell and look forward to getting the roll back as I remember which images this applied too (I realised halfway through the shoot that my ambient metering was over-exposed). 

You are right - practicing with a digital M is definitely the way to go, although my M10-D does seem to give a pre-flash in TTL mode which my M6 TTL doesn't - I am unsure if this is significant. 

I think this will be really rewarding once I get my head around it. 

Appreciate any help in the meantime.  

Thanks again 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by grahamc

[davidmknoble]

@grahamc, my personal experience with TTL is that if you are trying to fill in flash using ambient light, it doesn’t work.  If the ambient light is good, then ‘no flash is computed as needed.’  By using manual exposure and filling in what you want you get total control.

In a dark room with an under exposure situation, TTL probably helps…

Does that make sense?

[grahamc]

41 minutes ago, davidmknoble said:

@grahamc, my personal experience with TTL is that if you are trying to fill in flash using ambient light, it doesn’t work.  If the ambient light is good, then ‘no flash is computed as needed.’  By using manual exposure and filling in what you want you get total control.

In a dark room with an under exposure situation, TTL probably helps…

Does that make sense?

Thanks David, yes it does thankyou.

I'm going to have to do some experimentation on the M10 I think and also with a roll of cheap film on the M6 as well until I get the hang of it 

One thing - I think the flash was firing (TTL) at all times yesterday (even in very over exposed settings that I dialled in for a test).  This seems inconsistent with the 'no flash is computed as needed' assumption.   Do you think the flash I was seeing is a pre-flash to compute those settings, perhaps?   That's my main point of confusion at this point as the flash appeared to be fired at all times

moving forward once I get the hang of the manual fill flash I'll likely use manual outside and ttl inside (which I've found to be a breeze)

Thanks again David, all the best 

Edited April 12, 2022 by grahamc

[davidmknoble]

@grahamc, good question.  I have only had one flash for the last decade or so, the SF64, which has HSS and TTL built into the flash.  My issues were with the SL and S007.  So, based on what you said, if the flash does not have a built-in TTL, then it may well fire regardless.  Sometimes too much competing technology can probably cancel itself out!

Everything I’ve read and all my experimentation has pointed towards manual settings for complete control.  And yet, as I write this, one of my favorite film bodies is the Leica R9 with the multi-meter pattern which just does a stellar job. And I still shoot my M3 which is the opposite of the R9 - no choice but manual!

Really interested in your outcome… Best!

[grahamc]

Thanks David

I haven’t had chance to test this with a digital M and the SF24,  but I should have the film roll in question back after Easter and really interested to see.  I know for sure the flash “fired” (or perhaps “measured”) on every frame, and the meter was already showing correct or over.  So I have my fingers crossed and if the shots aren’t completely washed out (perhaps unlikely) then we have our answer. 

In retrospect it definitely isn’t the best situation to use TTL because if functioning correctly the flash will surely recognise it’s not needed and do the opposite (no flash) of what you want (some fill). I’ll look forward to learning more about manual and dialling it into this kind of scenario. 

In the meantime fingers crossed for a miracle 😂 But may have been lucky on some shadier shots perhaps . 

Definitely lots to learn. 

All the best 

Graham 

Edited April 15, 2022 by grahamc

[grahamc]

Interesting findings here as I have had the scans back and the 'fill' flash in TTL mode doesn't seem to have done any ill-effects at all, the scans look great !   Haven't had time to test on the M10 as planned but this is very encouraging .

I have a lot of images to get through but in reviewing them quickly the photos before I turned the flash off (ie the ones with a 'correct' light metre reading but the camera also triggering TTL flash) look way better than the ones (ie flash turned off) that I took as back up once I'd realised what I thought was a mistake. 

In short it 'looks' like the TTL flash would have worked as designed and registered a correct exposure so shut itself off after filling a bare minimum of fill to an already well exposed scene .  Great result ! 

 

[grahamc]

This example picked out randomly and unedited as I won't have time to go through the images properly for a few days .  I was going for the point & shoot feel to the image so I think it's worked out quite well .   I had used the sun lounger as a grey card and so was metered more or less correctly for the scene before the flash cam into play, so it's nice to know the flash firing in TTL has done a nice enough job and not washed our the image as I'd been worried about.

Of course a fairly "amateur" look is part of this style, so I could've probably done this with a camera 1/50th of the cost of my lovely M6 TTL and 35:1.4 v2 .    But it wouldn't be as fun would it  !

 

 

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[davidmknoble]

@grahamc glad it is working for you!!