KS15-4 authenticity

[derleicaman]

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The source of the disagreement may be in what records are being referenced. Leitz kept two different serial number lists. Most of the sources quoted are for serial numbers allocated, which is not the same thing as what was actually produced. There may have been 874 serial numbers allocated, but they may not have produced all of the serial numbers allocated. The real story is told by the delivery records. This shows the actual date of shipment and where that individual serial numbered item was sent. This record may not exist for the KS-15(4) and the M2-R cameras, which were all produced by E. Leitz Canada (ELCAN). If the records do exist, they would be in the Archive in Wetzlar.

Here is an image from the delivery records for lenses, in this instance for the 8.5cm Summarex. The page shows the actual serial number, code name, date shipped and where it was shipped to (short hand notation). As you will note, being hand written, there are many peculiarities to the notes in the records. Once you get used to reading them, you can figure out the details. In the page I show here, most of the deliveries were to Berlin (shorthand Bln), followed by the order number 29777. The code name for the Summarex is LOOCX, folowed by the letter B, which means these lenses were coated. Serial number 593001 was the first production lens of the 8.5cm Summarex. Take a look at the lens #593015. This one has a notation that it is without focus mount, and it was delivered to the Reichspost in Berlin, contract 11643. One might ask why Reichs Post Office? Well, the Reichspost was in charge of research and secret projects like the Atomic Bomb and television projects. Strange but true! Who knows what they were using this lens for.

Without this actual record for the KS-15(4) deliveries, you cannot make a blanket statement as to how many of them were produced.

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[dubois pierre]

Thank you derleicaman I understand but then where do these two series of deliveries come from for a total of 874
 M2 KS15-4?. We find this information in different posts and on different dates.

[derleicaman]

1 hour ago, dubois pierre said:

Thank you derleicaman I understand but then where do these two series of deliveries come from for a total of 874
 M2 KS15-4?. We find this information in different posts and on different dates.

This gets more interesting! I spoke to Jim Lager. He pointed out his volume one, cameras on p.201. He told me that the serial number ranges he had for the KS-15(4) are 1163150 to 1163770 and 1164046 to 1164300. Doing the math, that is 874 units as you pointed out. He agreed with me that these are allocated serial numbers, not necessarily cameras produced. He also said that he has not seen delivery records for the M cameras, only for the LTM cameras. I may have to look into this when I am in Wetzlar in October.

Edited April 13, 2022 by derleicaman

[alan mcfall]

With 1164299 being validated in post 15, I think the chances of all 874 being shipped are good. Military contracts, at least the US ones to Canada, usually seem to be fulfilled. KE-7A also.  Just my perspective. I have recorded about 20 KS-15 cameras and they are fairly evenly spread over the 874 allocated with no major gaps. If factory records can be found, so much the better.

[dubois pierre]

It is surprising that this M2 KS15-4 mounted by E. Leitz Canada at the request of the American army did not receive an 
identification plate similar to that of the Kardon on return. On the other hand, we find this plate on the bag 
delivered with the M2 KS15-4.

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[zeitz]

22 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Maybe the seller was thinking to a different modified M2  ... the M2-M made for the NY Electric motor : indeed, 275 (or 276) items are generally reported for it.

Luigi, my M2 Motor camera has a serial number in a sequence that was never allocated, at least according to the serial numbers in Laney's book.  My sn is 1 137 975.  I think more than 275 or 276 M2-M cameras were made or modified from a standard M2.  My motor drive is sn 02255.  (The M2 and the motor drive were purchased separately so they were not originally paired.)  Note that the M2 and M4 motor drives differ because of the quick loading feature of the M4 requires the extra plastic wedge on the take-up end of the drive.  Perhaps E Leitz NY could also provide that plastic wedge separately to upgrade an M2 drive to an M4 drive.

[jc_braconi]

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To illustrate the Dubois Pierre question I posted to him these pictured pages from Jim Lager book, Laney small book and Laney big ones.
After some reflections he found 12 versions of the M2 to collect ! A dream for a Leicaist...

 

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[atex]

Hello 
To add more.  
Here is an M2s with number out of series.  

Which was brought back from Indochina by a French reporter.  Which he exchanged in 1972 for a Pentax Spotmatic with American military photographer.  

He suffered a lot but it is certain that he served in extreme conditions. 
I add other modifications on the M2S the film advancement pinion is type M4 the standard M2 had a shoulder and the M4 is conical as in the photo.  
It was shipped on December 21, 1967 by Leitz.

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[bolu]

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Old thread, but I’d like to contribute my KS-15-4 which also falls outside of the serial numbers. It came to me with the MiCanada 35/2 (very late serial - final batch?), 50/2 Summicron DR and a bunch of accessories in the box. Most interesting is the badge indicating it was overhauled at Pirmasens Army Base.

 

Interesting footnote: the infinity lock tab on the 35/2 is present but not working. I.e., I don’t need to depress the tab to focus out of infinity. I’m not sure if it was a custom modification made for the military or if it is just broken.

Edited August 25 by bolu