Not sure if a M 240 can be for me

[Al404]

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I returned to photography few years ago with a mirrorless camera, I have never used an SLR, I am used to having a real preview of the image in the EVF

I've read several reviews, watched several videos and it's clear to me how a Leica M works and for how I photograph I'm a bit puzzled by some aspects:
- not being able to get closer than 70cm
- with wide angle lenses I can end up outside the lines
- not having an exact preview of the composition
- not having a preview of the depth of field
on the other hand, I hear so many people who are happy with the changeover and so I was wondering if there are also those who regretted and switched to something else.

Why am I looking at Leica M?Because I like very much the M lenses: small, light and sharp, but on Sony they don't perform at 100%, the SL is very big and would lose part of the advantage of a great travel kit.

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[a.noctilux]

Hello AI404,

Leica M is not for everybody, for sure.

Leica M has less to do with other systems, being unique in it's kind.

I think that in modern digital cameras, it has far less to offer than many others.

So why bother with what the other can do ?

👇

To answer your questions :

 - with some lenses and adapters or accessories, the M240 with liveview can be used closer than 70cm, of course

- I don't see what you mean by "outside the lines"

- with liveview, and/or EVF, you can see exact composition

- same here, appreciation of dof in LV/EVF

 

Don't forget that Leica Ms are only manual focus, but so nice in 'preset focus' when in good hands and experienced users

The LV and optional EVF were added as second use over OVF ( primary use of Leica M ) since M240.

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by a.noctilux

[Al404]

Quote

with wide angle lenses I can end up outside the lines

I mean the with 15mm I will be wider than rangefinder frame lines

I know about EVF but I also read that it is pretty bad, it also kind of look more like an occasional work around 

[a.noctilux]

Yes, that is the first generation of EVF, low resolution, slow refresh rate, lag, not bad in it's day but now we want more, of course.

In the OVF, only framelines for lens from 28mm onward (to 135mm only).

Plenty of add-on optical viewfinders can be used under 28mm.

They are not accurate but M users don't care because they have the composition in their head already 😇.

[Herr Barnack]

Have you thought of renting or borrowing an M240 for a few days or a week to see if you like it?  That might be your first step.

My first rangefinder was a Hasselblad XPAN; I had no trouble moving from Nikon SLRs to the XPAN.  When I got my first Leica M - a film MP with a 50mm Summilux - it was SO much better in terms of the rangefinder than the XPAN. 

Some people take to a rangefinder easily, others take some getting acquainted with this type camera.  Either way, Leica M cameras are the best rangefinder cameras you can get.  The M system is very different from an SLR system, but it offers many advantages, such as -

Small, light camera body compared to a full frame DSLR; does not wear you out to carry it all day

Small, light fast lenses compared to full frame DSLR zoom lenses

Unobtrusive design that makes candid shooting and street photography easier

Does not make human subjects nervous the way a large DSLR and zoom lens does

Leica M lenses are (probably/possibly) the highest quality lenses you can get

M lens mount offers the possibility to try/use other makes of lenses (Zeiss, Voigtlander, Meyer-Optik Gorlitz, TT Artisan, etc.)

M240 is a much more affordable camera than an M10

M240 has outstanding battery life

24 mp (in the M240) is more than adequate for most uses

The M240 can make exhibit quality prints up to 24x36 inches, provided the file is not cropped and 16x24 inches with minimal cropping

 

If you can find a clean used M-P 240, the upgrades it has compared to the M240 are worth the money, particularly the 2x larger buffer capacity and the sapphire glass rear LCD screen.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[cobbu2]

In addition to the advantages above, some of the limitations you mention, such as the close focusing distance and lack of depth of field preview, are not unique to the M240, but are characteristics of all rangefinder cameras. They are excellent tools when used within their limitations. One of the major advantages (and not just with the M240) are enhanced low-light focusing and the ability to view the scene outside the frame boundaries, providing additional context when making shooting decisions.

I use DSLRs for the many situations that a rangefinder is not well suited, but when I want the most image quality (for me, landscapes), I reach for my M240. It all boils down to which tool is best for the task at hand.

Edited October 16, 2021 by cobbu2

[Al404]

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I'm interested to M240 as travel camera

[LocalHero1953]

There is no getting round the disadvantages of a rangefinder and the flaws of the M system*. You have already identified many of them, and I am sure you would find more if you are comparing them to a typical mirrorless or SLR. The only way forward is to decide whether those flaws are fundamental to your approach to photography and whether you value the distinctive benefits that the M approach brings.

 

*Edit. The solution to some of the flaws is to try to turn the M back into a mirrorless EVF camera with the external EVF. If you feel you need to do that in more than exceptional cases, then perhaps you should question whether the M is your camera.

Edited October 17, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[evikne]

One more disadvantage:

You always have to focus in the middle of the viewfinder and then recompose.

One more advantage:

Leica M can teach you to be a better photographer! 😉

[Al404]

56 minutes ago, evikne said:

One more disadvantage:

You always have to focus in the middle of the viewfinder and then recompose.

One more advantage:

Leica M can teach you to be a better photographer! 😉

This is a great point 

I own a Voigtlander 50mm f1.2 I guess it would be impossible to use wide open on an object pretty close that I want to keep on the side of the frame.

Would it be possible to use EVF or live view on the back LCD setting the focus point on the side with zoom magnification?

[LocalHero1953]

33 minutes ago, Al404 said:

This is a great point 

I own a Voigtlander 50mm f1.2 I guess it would be impossible to use wide open on an object pretty close that I want to keep on the side of the frame.

Would it be possible to use EVF or live view on the back LCD setting the focus point on the side with zoom magnification?

Yes, but that is the point I am making - if you have to do that, why get a M? (But I no longer have a digital M and can't remember if you can move the zoom area to the side; others can tell you.)
Better to learn to focus & recompose - once you have learned to do that it would be quicker than zoom focusing on the EVF.

[evikne]

56 minutes ago, Al404 said:

I own a Voigtlander 50mm f1.2 I guess it would be impossible to use wide open on an object pretty close that I want to keep on the side of the frame.

Would it be possible to use EVF or live view on the back LCD setting the focus point on the side with zoom magnification?

Yes, it is. At least if you are photographing stationary objects. But you will lose the ability to shoot quickly and impulsively (which is one of the advantages of the M).

However, it's not impossible to do this with the OVF. It just takes a little practice (and preferably some knowledge of the focal plane). Here is a recent thread on the topic:

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by evikne

[a.noctilux]

6 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes, but that is the point I am making - if you have to do that, why get a M? (But I no longer have a digital M and can't remember if you can move the zoom area to the side; others can tell you.)
Better to learn to focus & recompose - once you have learned to do that it would be quicker than zoom focusing on the EVF.

With M240, only center can be magnified, the mag. portion can NOT be deplaced in the frame.

On M10, this is possible.

 

Using only the LCD/EVF must be considered as exceptional practice of M which shines with OVF.

[Al404]

The reason why I'm looking at M body is because I really like Voigtlander VM and on Sony body in some case perform non as good as on M body, that doesn't mean they perform bad but not at 100% so from time to time I re-evaluate if I would prefer to try to jump on M camera or try to go on a Nikon Z that MAY performe better

Edited October 17, 2021 by Al404

[plaidshirts]

4 hours ago, Al404 said:

The reason why I'm looking at M body is because I really like Voigtlander VM and on Sony body in some case perform non as good as on M body, that doesn't mean they perform bad but not at 100% so from time to time I re-evaluate if I would prefer to try to jump on M camera or try to go on a Nikon Z that MAY performe better

That’s a good a reason as any.

I keep multiple systems and use them for their strengths, not dwelling on their weaknesses.

And guess which brand I have the most of? Leica. The biggest reason is that I just like them. That’s all.

So I’d recommend getting an M240 and trying it out as others have suggested.

[evikne]

I am afraid choosing Leica M only (or even mostly) because of image quality will lead to disappointment, no matter how good it may be. Because this is such a special system that it probably requires a certain affiliation and passion. But it seems like a good idea to try it out first. Maybe you'll get hooked. 😉

[a.noctilux]

As others said, best to try out by yourself.

M system needs to be understood, so a long (or longer than most ) learning curve ...

Minimum automations to help having good results without user's "skill" (easy to learn though), but when understood

this can be so rewarding 👍.

After that learning-gaining-skill-period the limiting factor would be the user.

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

...M system needs to be understood, so a long (or longer than most ) learning curve ...

Learning to use an M camera is different from learning to use a DSLR but not harder.  That was my thought when learning to use my first M. 

My first M camera (a film MP) seemed much more simple than the DSLRs that are loaded with do everything technology.  To me, those cameras have a long learning curve. 

Digital M cameras have few functions to learn to use - shutter speed, aperture, focus, white balance, ISO.  Very basic stuff. 

That may be what scares some people away from the M system - there is no "do everything for me automatically" setting.

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Herr Barnack

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[Jean-Michel]

To AL404,

from your posts, if I were a camera salesperson, I would quickly realize that selling you any M camera would be a mistake. There are many other cameras that would satisfy your needs. Making an M work like a mirrorless camera is possible by using an EVF or the rear screen but it is far from the convenience and speed of any mirrorless cameras. The M cameras are meant to be point and shoot instruments  counting on the experience of the user: you soon learn how the actual captured frame differs from what the frame lines show, and to vary the exposure, and …

I purchase my first M while still a student, some 50 years ago, but only afterI was able to experience working with M cameras from the school. But for work, I used just about every other format depending on the job requirements. 
 

Perhaps you can find someone or somewhere to try an M before spending too much money on it. 

[Richardgb]

Al404 - I had an M240 for about 5years, following a similar length of time with an M9. I now have a Lumix S1.

As others have said, the rangefinder system is what it is, and it can be a love-hate relationship. The M in particular has also gained a certain legendary status - but this should be the last thing on your mind when considering a purchase.

While the M lenses are (generally) small, as with any other optic they are not perfect and in some respects 'behind' lenses made for today's EVF-mirrorless cameras. If you are go wider that the viewfinder's 28mm field of view (which is already tight - the eye has to be very close to see all the frameline corners), you'll be working more slowly. Adding an external viewfinder (optical or electronic) takes away use of the hot-shoe and with that any possibility of using synchronised flash. At the other end, once you use lenses longer than 75mm or longer focusing and framing becomes tricky.

You compare the M240 to the SL2, but the latter is bigger than EVF-mirrorless cameras from other manufacturers. Don't forget that the electronics of the M240 are now getting rather long in the tooth by digital camera standards.

Do I miss the M? No, not at all. It suited me at the time because of what dSLRs offered, but not since EVF-mirrorless cameras came on the market.