Three Summicron R 50mm 1:2 Versions

[05settar]

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Hi Guys!

Due to Internet research the common opinion is that there are only 2 Summicron R 50mm 1:2 Lens/Design versions, the older one until 1976 mainly for Leicaflex Cameras and the later one with new lens design with the popup lens Hood.

Since my last purchase I'm confused, i bought a new 50mm R Summicron  (Second version) to replace my actual lens sadly because it has a lens seperation but the new lens is significantly lighter than the old one.

My current: Summicron 50mm R 3 112 XXX LEICA R ONLY  from 1981 has about 296g 

New bought one: Summcron 50mm R 2 944 XXX LEICA R ONLY from 1978 has only 260g.

 

Someone here in the Forum has said that the Leica catalogue from 1976 tells that the Lens has 250g and the Leica catalogue from 2002/2003 indicates it has 290g.

Does any one of you guys knows where this 35-40g Difference come from? I'm curious.

 

nice Greetings

[jankap]

My Summicron 50mm R sample with number 2651xxx weights 306gr. Without sunshade and having somewhat weight loss due to the shaving to be able to use it on a lens booster.

[masjah]

My kitchen scales have my Summicron 50/2/ R ROM coming in at around 320gm without caps. Scales might not be totally accurate. Don't forget that the second version had three sub-variants: it was available as three cam, single R cam and ROM. Slight variations might well result from this.

[wizard]

Am 25.8.2021 um 15:54 schrieb 05settar:

My current: Summicron 50mm R 3 112 XXX LEICA R ONLY  from 1981 has about 296g 

New bought one: Summcron 50mm R 2 944 XXX LEICA R ONLY from 1978 has only 260g.

Where have they been made? Canada or Germany? The slight difference could be due to different glass materials. Certain optical glasses became unavailable after a certain point in time, and so Leica had to use other glass types instead, without however changing the optical formula (some insignificant changes may have happened to accommodate for new glass types, but were usually not communicated).

[05settar]

Thanks guys for your respond.

vor 13 Stunden schrieb wizard:

Where have they been made? Canada or Germany? The slight difference could be due to different glass materials. Certain optical glasses became unavailable after a certain point in time, and so Leica had to use other glass types instead, without however changing the optical formula (some insignificant changes may have happened to accommodate for new glass types, but were usually not communicated).

Both lenses are nearly identical, both are made in Canada, both are R ONLY lenses  3 Cam, and there is only about 3 Years difference in manufacturing date. 
 

vor 15 Stunden schrieb masjah:

My kitchen scales have my Summicron 50/2/ R ROM coming in at around 320gm without caps. Scales might not be totally accurate. Don't forget that the second version had three sub-variants: it was available as three cam, single R cam and ROM. Slight variations might well result from this.

Due to my research the first version weights about 340 gm, so i guess 320gm for a V1 is accurate.

 

[wizard]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb 05settar:

and there is only about 3 Years difference in manufacturing date. 

That does not exclude a change in glass materials, which may have occurred within those 3 years.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb 05settar:

so i guess 320gm for a V1 is accurate.

Masjah referred to a ROM equipped Summicron 50. Most likely, that will not be a v1 lens, but rather one of the latest copies of the Summicron 50 v2 lenses. I have a v1 at home, but would need to put it on my kitchen scale to find out about its weight.

[05settar]

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@wizard I'm sorry, i have missread the term "caps" instead of "hood", so true, with ROM it must be a later one and is certainly not a V1. 
 

vor 14 Minuten schrieb wizard:

That does not exclude a change in glass materials, which may have occurred within those 3 years.

Masjah referred to a ROM equipped Summicron 50. Most likely, that will not be a v1 lens, but rather one of the latest copies of the Summicron 50 v2 lenses. I have a v1 at home, but would need to put it on my kitchen scale to find out about its weight.

Thats quite possible that 3 years is enough for a change in material, 1976 V1 was stopped, mine V2 is from 1978 maybe this was something like a transition point for Leica from V1 to V2 were they have checked out different options in material and build design for there new Summicron.

 

[masjah]

Just to confirm, mine is indeed a V2, ROM equipped,  3841XXX, and engraved on the barrel "LENS MADE IN GERMANY". (I once read that the ones "made in Germany" are less common.)

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by masjah

[JonPB]

My guess is that the original, 3-cam design had a fair amount of hollow space for those cams, which was mostly preserved in the initial R-cam design (that likely just omitted those more complex bits), then that space was utilized to simplify manufacturing and assembly without affecting the optics. For example, a hollow that used to hold a cam might now be partially filled with metal (in other words, not milled away) to reduce manufacturing complexity, or a helicoid part might grow to make for easier alignment during assembly. It looks like there were six batches of thousands of lenses each between these two lenses, making mechanical design changes plausible if not likely. A weak point in this suggestion is that this was still years before the West generally learned about kaizen, so I have no idea how much Leica might have reexamined its designs during and between manufacturing batches.

[05settar]

Hey guys, i have found at the weekend in my own libary two references about the Summicron:

(1) A leitz catalogue from 1989, with the information that the Summicron V2 from 1989 weights 0,300 kg / 300g.

(2) Furthermore in the "Leica R5" book from Heiner Hennings 1988, he wrotes that the Summicron R 50mm V2 weights 300g. 

Therefore I still believe tat this copy form 1978 with only 260g is different from the 340g V1, the later 300g V2, and the V2 ROM with 320g, maybe not optically but sure in manufacturing /build design.

At the weekend I have tested it against the Later V2 (some fast testing not scientific ones ) and the performance is at the very first look similar. The coating is different, but this was expected.

nice greeting 

Edited August 30, 2021 by 05settar

[05settar]

Am 29.8.2021 um 19:09 schrieb JonPB:

My guess is that the original, 3-cam design had a fair amount of hollow space for those cams, which was mostly preserved in the initial R-cam design (that likely just omitted those more complex bits), then that space was utilized to simplify manufacturing and assembly without affecting the optics. For example, a hollow that used to hold a cam might now be partially filled with metal (in other words, not milled away) to reduce manufacturing complexity, or a helicoid part might grow to make for easier alignment during assembly. It looks like there were six batches of thousands of lenses each between these two lenses, making mechanical design changes plausible if not likely. A weak point in this suggestion is that this was still years before the West generally learned about kaizen, so I have no idea how much Leica might have reexamined its designs during and between manufacturing batches.

Thx for your answer, i followed your information and found five patches of Summicrons between these two examples. 

Maybe some of the members can post their weight of their own Summicron here, especially  between the number 2941701 and 3109001 so we would be able to determine when this change happened. 

nice greeting

Alex

[JonPB]

Hi Alex,

Here’s what I see in my copy of Puts’ Chronicle:

2941701-2945700 1978

2955501-2959500 1978

2969251-2973250 1979

3009651-3013650 1979

3089001-3093000 1981

3096501-3098500 1981

3109001-3114000 1981

Which is to say — you’re right, I miscounted the number of batches.

I own a 3011 lens, right in the middle, only I haven’t seen it in years … funny how loaning nice things to family works out.
Cheers,

Jon

[05settar]

Hehe, maybe if it finds its way back to you for messuring, you can add the weight ;).

nice greetings from austria

Alex

[jankap]

On 8/26/2021 at 1:36 PM, jankap said:

My Summicron 50mm R sample with number 2651xxx weights 306gr. Without sunshade and having somewhat weight loss due to the shaving to be able to use it on a lens booster.

Mine also carries the "Lens made in Germany".

[wizard]

Am 26.8.2021 um 13:36 schrieb jankap:

My Summicron 50mm R sample with number 2651xxx weights 306gr. Without sunshade ...

That's a version 1 lens then.

vor einer Stunde schrieb jankap:

Mine also carries the "Lens made in Germany".

To the best of my knowledge, v1 lenses were only made in Germany. It was the v2 lens (with built-in hood) that was made in both Canada and Germany.

Edited August 31, 2021 by wizard
correction

[Alon]

Dunno why there is a weight variance and I cannot weigh my copy as it has been Leitaxed to Nikon F mount.

I took a shot of my 2000 Leica official catalogue for you which shows the weight (at the bottom of the page) as 0.290 kg.

 

 

 

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