Leitz Photar macro lenses

[Guest]

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Let's use this thread to collect some information about the various versions of the Leitz Photar macro lenses.

Ernst Leitz Wetzlar Photar (original version)

• 2.5/25mm (code ?), RMS thread
• 4.0/63mm (code ?), RMS thread
• 6.3/150mm (code ?), M36x0.75 thread
• 5.3/180mm (code ?), M42x0.75 thread

Leitz Wetzlar Germany Photar (version I)

• 1.9/12.5mm (code 549 017), RMS thread
• 2.5/25mm (code 549 018), RMS thread
• 4.0/50mm (code 549 019), RMS thread
• 2.8/50mm (code 549 020), M40x0.75 thread
• 4.5/80mm (code 549 021), M40x0.75 thread
• 5.6/120mm (code 549 022), M40x0.75 thread

Leitz Wetzlar Germany Photar (version II)

• 2.4/12.5mm (code 549 025), RMS thread
• 2.0/25mm (code 549 026), RMS thread
• 4.0/50mm (code 549 027), RMS thread
• 5.6/80mm (code 549 028?), M42x1.0 thread
• 6.3/130mm (code 549 029?), M42x1.0 thread

Sources: macrolenses.de and various Leitz brochures for the order codes.

I still have lots of questions about these lenses, including:

• When exactly were the three versions introduced? I have two 1983 brochures that list version II.
• Who designed these lenses at Leitz/Leica?
• Are there differences in the optical design of the two versions of the 2.5/25mm Photar?
• Are there differences in the optical design of the two versions of the 4.0/50mm Photar?
• What were the order codes for the lenses in original Photar series?
• Are the codes for the 80mm and 130mm version II lenses correct?

Any contributions about these lenses are welcome. Maybe we leave example photos taken with these lenses for a different thread. A version I 4.0/50mm is on the way to me. Happy to open a photo thread once I have gained some experience with this lens on my bellows.

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[pgk]

Try: http://www.macrolenses.de/start.php?lang=en

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, pgk said:

Try: http://www.macrolenses.de/start.php?lang=en

I already referred to his site in my post. None of my questions is answered there.

[Guest]

Leica Fotografie International 03/1971 mentions the Photar lenses as a recent development ("juengste Entwicklung") and shows a picture of the six Photar I lenses. Therefore, the Photar I series was probably introduced around 1970. It is not clear to me why the Photar lenses were called a recent development at that stage when the original series was already around. I wonder when the original four lenses were introduced. It seems they were produced at the same time as the older Summar and Milar macro lenses.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Studienkamera

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Photar I lenses attached to Bellows-R (magnifications and working distances at minimum and maximum bellows extension)

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Photar II lenses attached to Bellows-R (magnifications and working distances at minimum and maximum bellows extension)

 

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Photar II lens design

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While the 25mm lens design still shows some similarity with the earlier fully symmetric Summar macro lenses, the 12.5mm and 50mm lenses clearly deviate from a symmetric design.

Has anyone information about the design of the earlier Photar lenses? Please share your knowledge.

[Guest]

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Apparently, there is not much interest in these lenses. Anyway, I attach some preliminary findings of my research, which includes the earlier Summar and Milar lenses as well. Maybe someone will find this information useful at some stage. To my surprise, even the 5.6/28mm Summaron was promoted as a macro lens for a while. The final columns list years in which these lenses were available according to Leitz catalogs and brochures in my collection. This list is obviously incomplete. For example, I read that the Milar lenses were already introduced in 1939 but I did not find any source for this claim. It is quite astonishing to see for how many years the Summar lenses were produced. They were updated during this long production period, of course. For example, earlier Summar lenses were uncoated while later ones were coated. Also, early ones were available in a variety of brass mounts, while later ones were black.

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I guess the Milar lenses were of a simpler design than the Summar lenses. They were advertised in early literature as having advantages over the Summar lenses in terms of contrast, which suggests that they had less lens elements. This advantage arguably disappeared when lens coatings became available. Later literature mentioned that Summar lenses were superior to Milar lenses. It seems Leitz decided early to discontinue some Summar lenses (65mm and 100mm) and instead issue these focal lengths as Milar types. Milar lenses were cheaper than Summar lenses of a similar focal length, which themselves usually were cheaper than Photar lenses at a time when both series were available.

Again, any additions, comments or corrections are highly welcome! I am particularly interested to see diagrams like the one in my last post for older lenses.

[wlaidlaw]

Oddly Macrolenses.de completely misses out the Novoflex Noflexar macro lenses. I use an R mount Noflexar 60mm on a Leica/Novoflex 16880/BR-2 bellows with an R to L adapter on an SL601 for slide copying. It was very cheap S/H but seems to work very well when stopped down to f5.6. I use a Novoflex Castel-COP-Digi as the dedicated slide holder on the 16880 bellows. I believe Novoflex made a number of different focal lengths, at least 60mm and 100mm in various mounts. Somewhere I have a copy of the Novoflex catalogue from the early 1990's. I will try and locate it to see if they made other macro lenses. 

Wilson

[pgk]

10 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

Apparently, there is not much interest in these lenses.

The reason may well be because they are a betwixt and between set of lenses. I always think that they belong as much to the microscopy side of the Leitz business as they do to the photographic as they are speciaist lenses intended for purely 'technical' use. At times the odd one strays into more conventional use (Barnack's early use of the Summar) but in general they are more of use to specialists. As such their interest in more generalised photography circles is limited. You will find some information here though: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/ by searching on Photar, etc.. but having done this myself in the past I can say that you may be disappointed because they are not regarded as particularly outstanding designs as most are now fairly old. You may glean something useful though.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, pgk said:

The reason may well be because they are a betwixt and between set of lenses. I always think that they belong as much to the microscopy side of the Leitz business as they do to the photographic as they are speciaist lenses intended for purely 'technical' use. At times the odd one strays into more conventional use (Barnack's early use of the Summar) but in general they are more of use to specialists. As such their interest in more generalised photography circles is limited. You will find some information here though: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/ by searching on Photar, etc.. but having done this myself in the past I can say that you may be disappointed because they are not regarded as particularly outstanding designs as most are now fairly old. You may glean something useful though.

I have used macro lenses on extension tubes and a bellows for about 15 years now and know pretty well what I can expect from them. I have posted photos taken with macro lenses on this forum. I deliberately  posted this thread in the collectors corner because I would like to know more about the history of these lenses. The forum you linked will not provide any help on this. I know very well that there are superior solutions available these days. However, for the pictures I take, I don't need a HR Digaron or Macro Varon. These are large and expensive lenses. I am very happy with the quality of my tiny 80mm M-Componon and expect a similar level of quality from the 50mm Photar I that I just purchased. I have seen images taken with a modest 40mm Milar in the German part of this forum that are completely fine in terms of quality. But, as I said, this thread is about the history of these lenses. Even highly regarded collectors books like Laney basically have zero information on these lenses. The table I posted here earlier has much more information than any dedicated collectors book I am aware of. This thread is about filling gaps in the documented history of these lenses. You might not find this useful, I do. These lenses were around before anyone even thought about the Ur-Leica and were in production for about 100 years. I find this fascinating. That's why I would like to know more and I hope others contribute their knowledge about these lenses.

[wlaidlaw]

Leicamicrosystems, from whom I bought some parts 2 years ago for my Leica Labolux binocular microscope, only give a very condensed history of the company. I suspect there may be German Language books which give a much fuller history and they may well cover the Photar lenses. 

Wilson

[Guest]

I wish there were such a book, but I doubt. I have been interested in macro lenses for about 25 years now (some might remember the old micro lens page of WJ Markering), but I have never seen a reference to such a book. And yes, I do speak German.

[pgk]

30 minutes ago, Studienkamera said:

This thread is about filling gaps in the documented history of these lenses.

My point was/is that you may need to look elsewhere because, as you are finding, photographic (as opposed to microscopy) sources are not yielding you much information.

[Guest]

There almost seems to be an opposition here against having such a thread on this forum. Did I break some taboo? Why on earth can we not start collecting this information here? Who else would be interested in Leitz telegram codes, order numbers and production periods if not the collectors frequenting this very forum? I am puzzled.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Studienkamera

[willeica]

From the Lens Vademecum

Early Lenses

Summar f4.5 24, 35, 42, 64, 80, 100, 120mm This may be a 6-glass Gauss

type, (Frerk's comment) or an air-spaced Dagor type? (Lei001). This was shown in an early pamphlet and it is

unclear how long it was sold. They show 8-air-glass reflexions with little sign of extra reflexions, which rules

out extra spacing or even cemented surfaces. However it does seem that by the 1920's there was a new type.

Thus it is thought that the design changed to a 4g/4c dialyt of equal performance in later years. These lenses

do not seem to be numbered, and may be continued later than first thought in brass finish, as some are in

M39x26 adaptors suggesting a post-Leica date, but a black finish 120mm example has also been seen. It was

recommended to use 120mm on 9x12cm, 64mm on 6x6cm. In 1908 they were listed as Portrait lenses, with

the f5 as a lens for groups and general outdoor work. The smaller examples such as a 64mm were listed as

f4.0 in a B&J list. Several f4.5 lenses have been seen. The iris graduations are unusual, the f4.5/120mm being

graduated from 2 (about f4.7) to 96 (about f32), the 80mm stopping merely to '24', about f16. Early examples

are in lacquered brass, later in black enamel. A 120mm lens was used on a 6x9cm camera and gave

attractive negatives of good quality but fairly low contrast.

Fig 015 034 Leitz Summar lenses (l + r) Summar f4.5/120mm and (mid) Summar f4.5/80mm.

Summar Series 11 f5.0 95, 115, 135, 150, 180mm (Layout Lei002) This seems to be a less

common series from the few examples seen. It was also made as:

Summar Series 11 also f6.0 150, 180, 210, 240, 270, 300mm (Layout Lei003) and this was the

version Frerk knew. It was suggested to use 135mm for 9x12cm. (B.J.A. 1909, p696, 697).These are

convertible to work as long focus lenses. The only example seen was a f6/135mm and was in a shutter, and

no serial number could be seen. (The front cell was rather lightly engraved and the paint was badly worn.) It

seemed to be a 4g/4c design, possibly a dialyt. The reflexion pattern was like the f4.5 in having 8 bright

reflexions, but here two were very close together at all times on the 135mm lens seen.

Periplan f7.7 90, 120, 150, 180, 210, 240mm (Layout Lei004) This can be seen

as a version of the Q7 anastigmat. Use 120mm for 9x12cm.

For all these, use a 7in lens for 1/2plate. The covering power of Periplan was nearly as big as the Summar,

and it was a good deal cheaper at £3.oo compared to £4.5o for the Summar. (B.J.A. above."We can strongly

recommend the "Periplan" to anyone requiring a cheap f8 lens.")(Anon): see B.J.A. 1900, p865 for a 3+1 type

lens eg as a 240mm f8.0. Production of this seems not to be known.

Writing in 1926, Frerk says these were discontinued, but high quality items and useful secondhand. He does

not "know" of the Elmar though the new Leica camera just got into the book, probably at the proof stage.

Milar f4.5 25-100mm This was essentially a macro lens, using the Triplet layout. It

was a very long lived product, still being produced well after 1945 for macro work. The layout is near Q13 with

the front two glasses near together. The f4.5 50mm version was used on at least one Leica prototype. Note

that Leitz also made or used triplets for cine use under the trade name "Dygon" both before and after WW2.

 

William

[pgk]

37 minutes ago, Studienkamera said:

There almost seems to be an opposition here against having such a thread on this forum. Did I break some taboo? Why on earth can we not start collecting this information here? Who else would be interested in Leitz telegram codes, order numbers and production periods if not the collectors frequenting this very forum? I am puzzled.

No opposition but if the information was readily avaiable it would probably have been posted already. So as I indicated researching it should probably look elsewhere than here.

[Guest]

Thanks William. There is some interesting information!

The 1905 brochure that includes information on Summar lenses indeed mentions that these were a further development of the air-spaced Dagor lens (D.R.P. Nr 135 742, 1901, given to Ernst Arbeit in Wetzlar). Ernst Arbeit was appointed head of the Photo-Optik division of Leitz in 1901, where he worked with Carl Metz. Both the Summar lenses and the air-spaced Dagor use a symmetrical design with 6 lenses in 4 groups. However, in the Summar design the single lenses are located outside the cemented pair while in the air-spaced Dagor design they are located inside. On this forum, the Summar lens design is sometimes called a Planar design (D.R.P. Nr 92 313, 1896, Carl Zeiss Jena, Paul Rudolph) but the cemented pair looks different in both designs as far as my amateur eyes can see.

The "unusual" Iris graduations are Stolze numbers. Here is some information on these:

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The 135mm, 150mm and 180mm Summar lenses (as well as the Periplan) were offered for the Leitz "Moment-Kamera" and "Klapp-Kamera." It is the first time I see a 115mm lens mentioned as well. As far as I know, these lenses were never specifically intended for macro work and do not show up in any list of macro lenses that I could find in Leitz publications.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, pgk said:

No opposition but if the information was readily avaiable it would probably have been posted already. So as I indicated researching it should probably look elsewhere than here.

I hope you will be proven wrong.

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Hallo,

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[pgk]

Well, the Lens Vademecum is essentially a photographic history document and not a Leica one.

[willeica]

I'm just throwing stuff 'into the bucket' here. Here is more about the early Summar lenses, particularly about their use in the Moment camera. They were also intended for the Klapp camera, but I don't think I have seen one. The one in the photograph was identified as being on a Klapp camera, but Lars Netopil who knows everything there is to know about such cameras has identified it as a Moment camera. The text is from Van Hasbroeck's book. Despite what he says I have seen about 3 or 4 examples of the Moment camera. The statement about the cameras not selling well is probably correct. The lenses were from Leitz, but the camera bodies were probably made by other German manufacturers such as Ernemann. This shows that Leitz did dabble with selling cameras with its own lenses before the Leica was marketed.

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William

Edited August 22, 2021 by willeica