Will R10 too expensive for me?

[carstenw]

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If all you care about is ultimate image quality then you can rest assured ... the new Sony DX and FX sensors chipped cameras are no where close to the DMR and M8. In my very humble opinion, the only serious games in 35mm world are Leica and Canon.

 

After seeing some real world D3, D300, A700 pictures now my already overwhelming confidence is stronger than ever. LOL

 

If quality only comes at a price then I'm willing to pay for it!

 

You are making the same mistake again which did so much damage to the M8: judging quality from cameras which aren't out yet. Even when the cameras are released, one would expect to have to wait a firmware version of two before judging the image quality. Let's see what Nikon can come up with. Btw, I don't agree that Canons have good IQ. This is a personal taste matter, not a question of fact, and I don't like the Canon look. The Nikon images I have seen I like much better.

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[sdai]

You are making the same mistake again which did so much damage to the M8: judging quality from cameras which aren't out yet. Even when the cameras are released, one would expect to have to wait a firmware version of two before judging the image quality. Let's see what Nikon can come up with. Btw, I don't agree that Canons have good IQ. This is a personal taste matter, not a question of fact, and I don't like the Canon look. The Nikon images I have seen I like much better.

 

Where have you read my judgement over the M8's image quality before it came out? ... I don't write beta test reports nor publish second thoughts on cameras.

 

I do agree with you that the preference over brand A to brand B is very personal although the differences can be measured by scientific tests and ...

 

Nikon comes with what? ... without the help of Sony, they can do nothing.

 

Nikon IS Sony.

[stunsworth]

Nikon IS Sony.

 

I thought I read that the sensor for the new full frame Nikon wasn't a Sony product. Could be wrong on that though.

 

Then again you may as well say Leica is Panasonic and Kodak <grin>

[sdai]

I thought I read that the sensor for the new full frame Nikon wasn't a Sony product. Could be wrong on that though.

 

Then again you may as well say Leica is Panasonic and Kodak <grin>

 

You are certainly right in some regards, Steve. LOL

 

If the D3 sensor is not a Sony product, you can always expect a full coverage on their talent ... and to everyone who has asked the same question, their best answer is no comment.

[carstenw]

Where have you read my judgement over the M8's image quality before it came out? ... I don't write beta test reports nor publish second thoughts on cameras.

 

I do agree with you that the preference over brand A to brand B is very personal although the differences can be measured by scientific tests and ...

 

Nikon comes with what? ... without the help of Sony, they can do nothing.

 

Nikon IS Sony.

 

Well, that was a lot of words not dealing with the core message for you: don't judge the Nikon until it has been released.

[etrigan63]

The D3/D300 use Nikon sensors. Nikon holds the patent for their design. Who builds them is another matter. More to the matter is that Leica is not well known to the mass market. I took my recently purchased M8 to work to show to my co-workers who are photo buffs as well. Their first question (with one exception) was "What's a Leica?" Only one person said "Oooooh, a Leica!" followed by "Your wife didn't kill you?" So from my impromptu poll: 7 out of 8 photogs (medium to advanced amateurs) did not recognize the brand.

[jaapv]

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The R3 marked the decline, no, make that disappearance of Leica reflex among wildlife photographers. The unreliable early samples coupled with the merely average viewfinder prompted many to abandon Leica after many years of using the SL and SL2 with the f/6.8 Telyts. "Never again!!" was what I was told over and over, particularly by those who were bitten again by the early R4 troubles.

 

Uh? I count myself a bit of a wildlife photographer (not pro, and no inclination to publish) and specifically chose R 4-5-6-7 cameras as the most reliable with the best optics out in the wild. There is no lens to touch the 4.0/ 280 APO for fine detail and try to use any other lens than a Leica with 1.4 and 2.0 extenders stacked and still get good results.

And an R3 is eminently suited to knock out cold that Lion coming at you

[sdai]

don't judge the Nikon until it has been released.

 

hmmm ... that sounds very similar to "do not judge a GM truck until it has been released." perhaps you're right, by the way, it has been released.

[sdai]

The D3/D300 use Nikon sensors.

 

You may be right, sir ... I also don't see anything wrong with buying something and putting my own label on it.

[carstenw]

hmmm ... that sounds very similar to "do not judge a GM truck until it has been released." perhaps you're right, by the way, it has been released.

 

Any reviews yet? I haven't seen any, just some shots from some amateurs, which I wouldn't use to judge the camera...

[sdai]

Here's something from one guy who went to the IAAF championship in Osaka:

 

One of the Canon shooters walked his way to the press center in Nagai Stadium hoping to have his camera checked on site. He asked a guy in the room where he could find CPS. The guy looked down at his camera, paused a second and gasped:

 

You're out of luck, my friend. Only IAAF official partners' services are allowed in here, we can lend you a brand new Nike camera if you like.

[ho_co]

The D3/D300 use Nikon sensors. Nikon holds the patent for their design. Who builds them is another matter.

Carlos--

I think I read somewhere that the new cameras use Sony sensors, and that Nikon gets rights to the sensor for a while because they put up 40% of the development cost. (But when I went looking for where I had seen that, I couldn't find it again.)

 

Sounds to me that your remarks on the Nikon sensors would fit into that description, or is there something in what I think I remember that you disagree with?

 

Thanks!

 

--HC

[jaapv]

Anyway, to come back on topic, The only thing I would like the R10 to be is a smallish package of M8/DMR file quality I can put R lenses on.....At more or less an M8 price. I guess I'm not sane -I would prefer a 1.3 or 1.5 sensor too....

[Guest tummydoc]

It keeps coming back round to what I've been saying. There are far fewer Leica-R users than M, which puts Leica in a bit of a bind. They can design the R10 so as to be sure it appeals to the existing market, i.e. bereft of many features that are today ubiquitous such as auto-focussing and some type of anti-shake technology. In that case they cannot hope to sell more than a fraction of M8 sales to-date. (Probably in the neighbourhood of DMR sales, for if Leica's research indicated there was enough residual demand for the DMR that another run of 4-5,000 could be sold out, they would surely find a vendor to replace Imacon's participation and make it happen.) However Leica would have an uphill battle trying to contain costs given the much lower predicted sales volume. Their other option would be to try to make the R10 appeal to a wider range of buyers, however to lure buyers from Canon and Nikon they would have to include those "modern" features, and thus be prepared to throw their current R market to the proverbial wolves. Mr. Jaapv is on the right track in suggesting Leica might aim as much as possible toward re-using much of the M8's entrails in an R10, adding the mirror box and a penta-prism and R mount. It may be interesting from an historical perspective that at one point quite a few years ago, Leica considered amalgamating the two systems in an opposite fashion, using the R4 chassis as the basis for an automated M body. They went as far as to create a prototype.

[paulmoore]

one thing that is overlooked in this discussion on prices is that todays top end dslr's are yesterday's medium format, and high-end mfdb's are yesterdays large format..

I think it is fair to say that a top of the heap dslr of 16-20 mp should come in around 7-8,500. I am looking at this from a business standpoint not a hobbist, so it is part of the business equation..film,polaroid and processing for a year was easily twice that for small camera/med format shooters. Most work done professionally can be done with dmr sized files.. the next jump in sensor quality will cover that much more of the pie, there aren't that many guys who have to have the quality of a mfdb..but those that need it, do need it.. as you know they don't come cheap.. nor were my sinar's or sheet film. There is no way leica can survive on the sales of a digitized sl..hey I am cut from the same cloth as these traditionalists but

if someone would wave a wand and make my r9/dmr af optional tomorrow I would say thank you..again it has it uses even to a x-view camera guy like me. I never used the sl so I don't know what I'm missing when I shoot with a r8/9 but I am pleased with it, it is't perfect but let them take the r9 and advance it to the next stage. The dmr is a quality product I'm sure the r10 will be one too..but make it professional by keeping to the modernization trend..that comes with a price that both pro and non-pro will pay.. build a digital sl3 and it could be the last slr they make..or make a special edition run, 50 of them at 30,000 each for the 200 who want them.

And just to hammer this some more, 10,20 and 30 years ago it was only the few that

could afford a leica, hasselblad or a sinar..either you had the income or you used it commercially. I don't see any change in that today with the digital cameras. The trick will be to not loose that leica focus quality with af.. I'm sure that is not easy.. most leica shooters would be turned off by a funny feel in the focus ring when on manual. I went with leica for 3 reasons, glass, sensor and mechanics..if they raise the bar in these areas they will have a repeat customer with me.

[sdai]

I have R lenses made by Sigma, Minolta, Kyocera and Leica themselves so I can tell ... the funny feeling when turning a focusing ring is not a AF lens patent, manual focus "Leica" lenses can also be made loosely.

 

Being a long time Leica owner but speaking from a Canon user's perspective, Leica still has a lot of attractions to a Canon camera user because they offer a lot which Canon can not or does not intend to offer.

 

Most people who look at the Rs closely are well educated/informed serious amateurs or working professional who know exactly what they're looking for ... as long as Leica maintain their usual standard and offer a reasonably comparable price/performance ratio, I don't see why they could have any difficulty in selling the R10s.

[doctorlol]

Most people who look at the Rs closely are well educated/informed serious amateurs or working professional who know exactly what they're looking for ... as long as Leica maintain their usual standard and offer a reasonably comparable price/performance ratio, I don't see why they could have any difficulty in selling the R10s.

 

I happen to agree, but can the red-dot brand image catch the innovation that is being exhibited by Nikon and Canon. Many of you have illustrated this point by saying that you use either of these manufacturers products, but are emotionally wedded to Leica. Does heart rule the head?

HAGWE

 

Laurence

[Guest tummydoc]

Most people who look at the Rs closely are well educated/informed serious amateurs or working professional who know exactly what they're looking for

 

Absolutely correct. And those who find in Leica what they're looking for, will buy it. Those who don't, will not. Leica's problem is in trying to decide whether to design the R10 to appeal to the small former group, or risk alienating them in favour of appealing to the latter group which holds more potential for volume since it is a much larger group and comprises people who are currently in Canon's or Nikon's market.

 

... as long as Leica maintain their usual standard and offer a reasonably comparable price/performance ratio, I don't see why they could have any difficulty in selling the R10s.

 

Absolutely correct once again. But again, the current R market has been quite vocal about their reasons for choosing R, expressing distaste for auto-focus, anti-shake, and other accoutrements of what they frequently insinuate are crutches for the lazy and inexperienced. Meanwhile the Canon/Nikon users frequently bash the R system as arcane and antiquated and insinuate that its proponents are likewise. It certainly takes more imagination than I have to envision a camera that can attract members of the latter group without foresaking those in the former, given the groups appear both polarised and intractable on certain key features. It will be very interesting to see how Leica proceeds.

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[andybarton]

The problem with the market for high end cameras (M8 & R10) is that the M8 has an obvious USP. It's the only digital rangefinder available.

 

The R10 won't be unique. Unless Leica make it so.

[sdai]

The R10 won't be unique. Unless Leica make it so.

 

The uniqueness to separate a Leica R from a Canon EOS or a Nikon F is already bigger (enough) than the differences between a Canon and a Nikon, yet the fans from C and N camps are never tired of babbling to each other. LOL