How long does it take Leica to produce a lens, in the old days

[Shu_downunder]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I'm writing a short essay for my community regards Leica.

How long does it take Leica to produce a lens, before they have machine to grind glass?

Any info or source appreciated.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[pedaes]

You are asking a question that is impossible to answer as put. Are you asking how long it takes to grind an individual element? Of what size and complexity - spherical or aspherical? Large or small?

I think you are going to have to be more non-specific in your essay.

3 hours ago, Shu_downunder said:

Any info

 

[Shu_downunder]

17 minutes ago, pedaes said:

You are asking a question that is impossible to answer as put. Are you asking how long it takes to grind an individual element? Of what size and complexity - spherical or aspherical? Large or small?

I think you are going to have to be more non-specific in your essay.

 

I got your point. 
 

How long would Leica need to produce a lens, say, the difficulty 2.8/35-70-R? And how long for an most produced one, say, 2.0/35-M.

This is about time they need from grinding till lens assembled. Maybe it’s not that simple, but I just need an idea  

 

[AndreasG]

Lens grinding by mechanical equipment was already well known when Leica built their first camera, see, e.g., here:

https://mafo-optics.com/historical-grinding-machine-for-spectacle-lenses

About the time demand to grind a single lens element I only can speculate, I roughly guess under above conditions approx. 10-50 hours or more, depending on size, accuracy and surface quality.

The final assembly time for a modern Leica M-lens (lens group/groups, barrel, aperture blades, flanges, VF cam mounting etc.) I estimate to less than one hour.

[Jeff S]

Every situation is different.  Here Peter Karbe discusses the challenges of developing and producing the 50 Summilux M ASPH...

https://www.shutterbug.com/content/leica-lens-saga-interview-peter-karbe

The time to produce a lens may also involve years in the conceptual phase.  The 50 APO M Summicron took 16 years to come to fruition.

https://www.leica-camera.blog/2012/06/04/peter-karbe-the-leica-apo-summicron-m-50-mm-f2-asph/

Jeff

[Shu_downunder]

Humm, initially I though it will take a week or even longer to produce. But once I saw your figure, I realised that it has to be quicker.

Assume it is 33.5 hours grinding + 1 hour assembly + 0.5 hour checking and packaging that's 35hours(one week). Let's assume the lens is sold for $3500 to retailer. That means $100/hour gross income. If the profit is 30%, admin, marketing and other cost 20%, then the material and labour is $50/hour. This is quite tight IMHO. 

Actually I'm not interested in Leica AG's interest, I'm interested in how long they need to produce a lens.😀

[Shu_downunder]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

7 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The time to produce a lens may also involve years in the conceptual phase

That's true. But I'm actually asking from start of grinding to finished assembling. Thanks though.

[Jeff S]

10 minutes ago, Shu_downunder said:

That's true. But I'm actually asking from start of grinding to finished assembling. Thanks though.

The Karbe interview, though, shows that even the ‘nuts and bolts’ process isn’t linear. Time and costs, however distributed, are real.

Jeff

[derleicaman]

You are also assuming that 100% of the sale price of the lens returns to Leica AG, which is incorrect. You are forgetting about the retailer, who must make a profit. The Leica Agency for a particular country/region must make a profit and then Leica AG in Germany which must make a profit.

I think if you just stick to how long it takes to make a lens, from grinding the elements to final assembly,  you are on more solid ground. How about the time it takes to melt and pour the glass used to make up the lens elements? Are they made in house or from a supplier? Leica buys glass "blanks" from many sources. They have not made their own glass for many years. You are also forgetting in your scenario, how long it takes to machine and finish the metal parts that go into making the lens. You have to account for the helicoid, the diaphragm blades, the "cell" that holds the lens assembly together. I'm sure I am leaving many things out of the equation, but I think you get my point.

[Jeff S]

4 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

You are also assuming that 100% of the sale price of the lens returns to Leica AG, which is incorrect. You are forgetting about the retailer, who must make a profit. The Leica Agency for a particular country/region must make a profit and then Leica AG in Germany which must make a profit.

I think if you just stick to how long it takes to make a lens, from grinding the elements to final assembly,  you are on more solid ground. How about the time it takes to melt and pour the glass used to make up the lens elements? Are they made in house or from a supplier? Leica buys glass "blanks" from many sources. They have not made their own glass for many years. You are also forgetting in your scenario, how long it takes to machine and finish the metal parts that go into making the lens. You have to account for the helicoid, the diaphragm blades, the "cell" that holds the lens assembly together. I'm sure I am leaving many things out of the equation, but I think you get my point.

Indeed...and the Karbe interview touches on some of these issues, particularly the glass.

Jeff

[Erato]

A missing puzzle -- months for stabilized each element before they're qualified(sophisticated QC inspections) and sent to assembly for Max Production!
I appreciated vintage lenses, and something is beyond hidden cost, or I should say it's priceless.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Erato

[Shu_downunder]

1 hour ago, Erato said:

months for stabilized each element before they're qualified

Can you be more specific?

[Shu_downunder]

2 hours ago, derleicaman said:

You are also assuming that 100% of the sale price of the lens returns to Leica AG

Not really, I assumed the $3500 is to the retailer, not the consumer. 
 

2 hours ago, derleicaman said:

Are they made glass in house or from a supplier?

good question. That’s what I want to know as well. 
 

2 hours ago, derleicaman said:

Leica buys glass "blanks" from many sources. They have not made their own glass for many years.

If that’s the case then the time making the glass should not calculated. It’s material cost. 

 

2 hours ago, derleicaman said:

how long it takes to machine and finish the metal parts that go into making the lens.

That’s part of my question as well - how long to produce a lens. 
 

But I do get your point. The assumption I did in reply #6 is a response of #4. It’s a way to test the time when I have very limited information. The result is maybe incorrect but it can be sure from the test: that even Leica can produce a lens from scratch for within a week, they need to control the material and labour cost very well to maintain a reasonable profit. And that is just gross profit, a lot of which goes into research, making prototypes, etc. 

1 hour ago, Erato said:

I should say it's priceless

Totally agree. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Shu_downunder

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Shu_downunder said:

Not really, I assumed the $3500 is to the retailer, not the consumer. 
 

good question. That’s what I want to know as well. 
 

If that’s the case then the time making the glass should not calculated. It’s material cost. 

 

That’s part of my question as well - how long to produce a lens. 
 

But I do get your point. The assumption I did in reply #6 is a response of #4. It’s a way to test the time when I have very limited information. The result is maybe incorrect but it can be sure from the test: that even Leica can produce a lens from scratch for within a week, they need to control the material and labour cost very well to maintain a reasonable profit. And that is just gross profit, a lot of which goes into research, making prototypes, etc. 

Totally agree. 

Regarding glass source, for the third time, it varies, and the Karbe interview (read the entire second page) details the glass sourcing and cost issues specific to the 50 Summilux ASPH.  It’s a remarkable tale.

Jeff

[jdlaing]

1.  Specify the glass formula and/or the glass element characteristics. Wait for the elements to be manufactured. Grind and polish the elements.      Test.

2.  Machine all the barrel parts and mount. 

3.  Manufacture all the other parts including aperture blades.

4.  Paint or plate or anodize the parts.

5.  Assemble the lens.

6.  Test.

 

Months to make a lens. And they don’t make just one at a time.

[AndreasG]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb jdlaing:

1.  Specify the glass formula and/or the glass element characteristics. Wait for the elements to be manufactured. Grind and polish the elements.      Test.

=150-400USD per lens

2.  Machine all the barrel parts and mount. 

=40-80USD

3.  Manufacture all the other parts including aperture blades.

30 USD

4.  Paint or plate or anodize the parts.

25USD

5.  Assemble the lens.

80USD

6.  Test.

15USD

add finally 15USD for the box etc.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by AndreasG

[Shu_downunder]

7 hours ago, jdlaing said:

1.  Specify the glass formula and/or the glass element characteristics. Wait for the elements to be manufactured. Grind and polish the elements.      Test.

2.  Machine all the barrel parts and mount. 

3.  Manufacture all the other parts including aperture blades.

4.  Paint or plate or anodize the parts.

5.  Assemble the lens.

6.  Test.

 

Months to make a lens. And they don’t make just one at a time.

I guess it’s getting close now! Thanks.  
 

Apparently the actual hours working on the glass and parts are much less. But even when a piece of glass is waiting for testing, it still needs to be labeled, transported, stored and looked after. These involves lots of work as well. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Shu_downunder

[AndreasG]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Shu_downunder:

it still needs to be labeled, transported, stored and looked after. These involves lots of work as well. 

And this included in the total cost calculation as "overhead" or "general cost" as a certain percentage, let me say 5 or 7%.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Erato]

Currency appreciation & inflation over decades?

[Shu_downunder]

2 hours ago, Erato said:

Currency appreciation & inflation over decades?

 

That’s could be ignored for the few months when a lens is made. 
 

——

it seems the most unsure, or mysterious part is still when the glass is ground, coated and tested. Especially those ASPH elements.