Where have the Leitz Klapp Cameras all gone?

[Ambro51]

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Leitz had its hand in the very popular plate cameras of the teens.  Van Hasbroek says only a very few exist.  Early Leitz catalogs hint at a wide range of plate sizes and lenses being offered.  Any info appreciated!

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[willeica]

1 hour ago, Ambro51 said:

Leitz had its hand in the very popular plate cameras of the teens.  Van Hasbroek says only a very few exist.  Early Leitz catalogs hint at a wide range of plate sizes and lenses being offered.  Any info appreciated!

Full details concerning the Klapp and Moment cameras, including lens options and plate sizes, are given on pages 21-24 of the 1993 edition of van Hasbroeck's  book Leica 'A History illustrating every Model and Accessory'. I can copy them for you if you don't have this edition.

William

[Ambro51]

Well....I have the same book.  What prompted the question is not what they were, but it’s amazing that barely none survive,  I understand two wars etc but thousands of similar era cameras have survived.  

[willeica]

3 hours ago, Ambro51 said:

Well....I have the same book.  What prompted the question is not what they were, but it’s amazing that barely none survive,  I understand two wars etc but thousands of similar era cameras have survived.  

https://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Leitz/Moment.html

Made by Kreugener for Leitz, probably in small numbers. Only one has turned up at auction in recent years. 

The name Klapp was normally use to refer to a category of cameras. 

Van Hasbroeck has speculated that this Klapp camera might have been made by Ernemann

https://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Ernemann/Klapp-Camera-(1911).html

Or by Bulter and Stammer

https://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Bulter-&-Stammer/

It seems likely that any cameras actually made were in very small numbers and it also seems to be the case that such cameras were not actually made by Leitz. The idea was that Leitz would market the cameras. The scheme does not appear to have been a success and it was terminated before WWI due to poor sales. 

These cannot be compared to the later production of Leica cameras by Leitz itself. The fact that very few such cameras are around today is not surprising. 

William 

 

[pgk]

8 hours ago, willeica said:

Made by Kreugener for Leitz, probably in small numbers.

The name Klapp was normally use to refer to a category of cameras. 

Van Hasbroeck has speculated that this Klapp camera might have been made by Ernemann ..... Or by Bulter and Stammer

It seems likely that any cameras actually made were in very small numbers and it also seems to be the case that such cameras were not actually made by Leitz. The fact that very few such cameras are around today is not surprising. 

'Badge' engineering has been carried out since the earliest days of photography. Gandolfi, one of the best known makers of British wooden cameras produced many copies for other businesses. Some would have had the supplier's badge fitted with no mention of Gandolfi, others would have been unbadged. I have an early 'Universal' model which is unbadged. It had all the attributes of a Gandolfi and it took me weeks before I finally discovered 'L Gandolfi' stamped on a crossbeam below the bellows - I had to use a dentist's mirror to do so. Such cameras were made by their thousands by specialists such as Gandolfi, for the 'trade'. There were also other makers some of whom were large scale and some of whom simply built the odd camera when a customer ordered one and probably to the customer's specifications. So I would actually be surprised if Leitz had moved into woodworking to build their own cameras. Its far, far more likely that they subcontracted a specialist maker or makers to produce cameras to their requirements, and willeica's post illustrates a vry likely scenario which was probably repeated numerous times amongst photographic businesses of the time.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

'Badge' engineering has been carried out since the earliest days of photography. Gandolfi, one of the best known makers of British wooden cameras produced many copies for other businesses. Some would have had the supplier's badge fitted with no mention of Gandolfi, others would have been unbadged. I have an early 'Universal' model which is unbadged. It had all the attributes of a Gandolfi and it took me weeks before I finally discovered 'L Gandolfi' stamped on a crossbeam below the bellows - I had to use a dentist's mirror to do so. Such cameras were made by their thousands by specialists such as Gandolfi, for the 'trade'. There were also other makers some of whom were large scale and some of whom simply built the odd camera when a customer ordered one and probably to the customer's specifications. So I would actually be surprised if Leitz had moved into woodworking to build their own cameras. Its far, far more likely that they subcontracted a specialist maker or makers to produce cameras to their requirements, and willeica's post illustrates a vry likely scenario which was probably repeated numerous times amongst photographic businesses of the time.

Yes, you are right Paul. Leitz sold lenses which could be used on cameras which it did not make and the logical thing to do was to get others to do this The company did not get into camera mass production until the Leica was introduced in 1925. Leitz continued to produce lenses for other manufacturers such as Nagel, Welta, Kochmann and others into the 1930s but it petered out to almost nothing by about 1935. I suspect this was not a hugely profitable business and demand for the cameras with Leitz lenses was comparatively low. We must remember that in those days Leitz was not particularly more highly regarded compared to Zeiss, Schneider and Meyer etc and there was not much attraction in the 1930s for consumers to purchase Leitz over the other makes mentioned. The high prices fetched for such cameras with Leitz lenses today results from perceived desirability (through association with Leica) and, of course, actual rarity.

Going back to the 19th Century, we have discussed this many times outside of this Forum. Looking at late 19th Century and early 20th Century catalogues it would appear that many standard designs were available and indeed it is very likely that 'badge engineering' occurred with dealers' names being added on a front plate, such as with my 'Trinity' camera with the name of a Limerick dealer. A 'Stanley' camera said to have been made in Dublin c 1900 is on its way to me. There is some historical evidence that, though, that the firm with its name on the front actually made cameras.

Going back to Klapp and Moment, it would seem to me that these were a nice idea that did not work out for Leitz. Ernemann did have some success with the Klapp model, though.

William 

Edited April 4, 2021 by willeica

[kangaroo2012]

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Leitz had quite a large wood working business as all the microscope cases were timber

and the earliest microscope cameras were also timber and brass often on a vertical monorail.

When I worked (many years ago) we were loaned a Leitz Klapp camera brought to Australia by a Danish family.

They would not part with it but we had it in the Leica window in the shop for quite a while.

I managed to take photos and wrote an article for LHSA journal about it some years ago.

I will try to upload some photos.

Cheers

Philip

 

[willeica]

1 hour ago, kangaroo2012 said:

Leitz had quite a large wood working business as all the microscope cases were timber

and the earliest microscope cameras were also timber and brass often on a vertical monorail.

When I worked (many years ago) we were loaned a Leitz Klapp camera brought to Australia by a Danish family.

They would not part with it but we had it in the Leica window in the shop for quite a while.

I managed to take photos and wrote an article for LHSA journal about it some years ago.

I will try to upload some photos.

Cheers

Philip

 

Thanks Philip. I would love to hear what lens was on the Klapp camera. Van Hasbroeck listed some of the lenses that were available for that camera, one of which I have, the 12 cm f4.5 Summar - see page 24 of his book.

William

[pgk]

2 hours ago, kangaroo2012 said:

Leitz had quite a large wood working business as all the microscope cases were timber and the earliest microscope cameras were also timber and brass often on a vertical monorail.

Specialist items such as wooden cases may well have been subcontracted. Unless there was huge volume it would not make sense to produce items for which subcontractors were probably readily available and they would have been able to  produce material to specification and relatively cheaply. Few makers of microscopes would have made every item asociated with them in rheir own factory. Wooden cameras were often subcontracted so most likely wooden cases would have been too.

[kangaroo2012]

Hi Paul,

When I started at Leitz in Sydney in 1980, my boss told us that had trained at Leitz as an apprentice in the optics department.

He subsequently came to Australia and married an Australian girl so stayed on and became Manager of the microscope division 

at Wild Leitz, as it was then. His training courses for sales staff were first class and it was not book learning.

He told me that his father also worked at Leitz as a carpenter making microscope cases.

After the war, Gunter and his father helped rebuild some of the half timbered houses common around Wetzlar

using the carpentry skills of his father.

I had no reason to doubt him,

Cheers

Philip

[pgk]

2 hours ago, kangaroo2012 said:

He told me that his father also worked at Leitz as a carpenter making microscope cases.

I do not doubt you. However, wooden cameras are very different from microscope cases and require yet more skillsets like bellows making. In the very early years of the last century there was a massive industry making cameras for others to badge, either as wholesalers or retailers. Few lens makers opted to build their own cameras because they could buy them made to their specification for considerably less than it would have cost to buy in the metalwork and bellows, use their own woodworkers and so on. My father started life as a patternmaker working in wood to 1/100". My scrutiny of wooden cameras suggests that they were built to a similar tolerance which requires such highly competent and time-served woodworkers. Unless Leitz had a large throughput making a lot of precision wood items I would very much doubt that it was worth their while to have such specialised people working for them. As willeica has pointed out, some cameras clearly appear to have been made by subcontractors.

[Ambro51]

I think your hypothesis is wrong.  Leitz was precision and I doubt farmed out such important items.  Skilled Woodworkers were not in short supply and Camera making and yes bellows making in not difficult.  

[pgk]

On 4/3/2021 at 9:23 PM, Ambro51 said:

.....but it’s amazing that barely none survive,  I understand two wars etc but thousands of similar era cameras have survived.  

If Leitz had made large numbers then I would agree.

23 minutes ago, Ambro51 said:

I think your hypothesis is wrong.  Leitz was precision and I doubt farmed out such important items.  Skilled Woodworkers were not in short supply and Camera making and yes bellows making in not difficult.  

If Leitz had made large numbers then I'd agree.

[Ambro51]

Let me say I’m referring more to the earlier microscope based cameras rather than the vast line of the Klapp style cameras marketed with Leitz lenses.  These no doubt were made by other manufacturers but stressing the Leitz optics.  

[pgk]

7 hours ago, Ambro51 said:

Let me say I’m referring more to the earlier microscope based cameras rather than the vast line of the Klapp style cameras marketed with Leitz lenses.  These no doubt were made by other manufacturers but stressing the Leitz optics.  

Somewhere on the web I found a history of Leitz microscope cameras (the forerunners of the Aristophot) but I can't remember where. It was on a microscope site rather than a photo site though and this is probably where such material is now held as it is more interesting to those into the histpry of microscopy. If I find it I'll will post the link but here is some information: http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artmar10/history_photomicrography_ed3.pdf.

Edited April 13, 2021 by pgk

[willeica]

I have just received some photos of a Klapp camera with a Leitz 135mm f6 Summar lens from my good friend and fellow LHSA member in Australia, Philip Ramsden. This was previously on display in the Leica Store in Sydney. I have received a background note on the camera and I am checking the details with Paul Henry Van Hasbroeck, Jim Lager and Lars Netopil as it is quite an unusual item with some 'open questions'.

Firstly here is the camera. It is said that the camera looks like a US made Seneca No 9 Folding Plate camera

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Moving on to a plate at the back this describes the camera as having come from 

Ernst Leitz
Vertr. Frz Bergmann
Berlin NW Luisenstr. 45

 

 

Despite the Leitz name it is said that this company, which dealt in lab equipment for chemistry and microbiology, had been founded by Franz Bergmann. Franz started as an apprentice at Leitz, Wetzlar in 1882 and became the Leitz (microscope) representative in Berlin and later sold Leica cameras also.

My own sense is that this camera looks like a bit of a one off or 'make up' item. Klapp camera means to me a generic folding viewfinder 'hand and stand' camera of a type that was common in the late 19th and early 20th centuries rather than a model type. It is not like an Ernemann Klapp camera or the Moment camera shown by Van Hasbroeck

I will post more photos and comments in a few minutes.

William 

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by willeica

[willeica]

For this to make sense my previous post must be read first:

The lens is a 135mm f6 Summar. Van Hasbroeck lists a 135mm f5 Summar for the Moment camera, but not for the Klapp camera. 150mm f5 and f 6  lenses are listed for the Moment camera. The 135mm f6 may therefore be a 'new discovery'.

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There is also an advertisement for Leitz Hand Kameras. For reasons which are not obvious this will only display here horizontally, whereas I have it stored in vertical portrait format. Apologies to your necks! 

The most interesting point is that such cameras are said to have been available in Germany, Britain, Russia and the US. Why then are these items so scarce? I will post more if I hear back from the experts. 

William

[pgk]

11 hours ago, willeica said:

The lens is a 135mm f6 Summar. Van Hasbroeck lists a 135mm f5 Summar for the Moment camera, but not for the Klapp camera. 150mm f5 and f 6  lenses are listed for the Moment camera. The 135mm f6 may therefore be a 'new discovery'.

If you look at the aperture scale you will notice that the '6' is not positioned in the same way as the other aperture markings. I just wonder if this marking and position actually represents the f/5.6 mark which is so marginally below f/5 that it was decided just to mark the f/5.6 position with an offset '6'? In any case my guess would be that the lens would have had recommended 'working apertures' which were 2~3 stops down so having the open aperture marking would not have been of great importance. The maximum aperture may also have depended on factors such as the shutter mounting, which in some cases may well have vignetted the lens at full aperture. Opening up the aperture from f/6 to f/5 could have been irrelevant if the shutter prevented this in terms of the light transmission due to physical vignetting. The camera certainly looks 'badge' engineered, with the fittings most likely made by a third party as is the shutter.

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[willeica]

Received from Lars Netopil overnight.

"This is a Leitz Moment Kamera,  on basis of an Ernemann HEAG VI.

Not Seneca.

Check Wetzlar Camera Auction Lot 131, this was a similar one: 

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/74968329_leitz-moment-kamera-fritz-lehr-wetzlar "

 

This one, mentioned by Lars, sold for €50,000

There was also a similar camera sold at the Westlicht Auction, held in Wetzlar in May 2014, which I attended myself.

https://filmphotograph.com/leitz-moment-camera-c1907

Further details are available from the Leitz/Westlicht site. The camera sold for €48,000, including premium

Looking at these two cameras and the one shown by Van Hasbroeck there are differences between the items. This was an 'assembly' job rather than a manufacturing one. Leitz assembled/obtained cameras and shutters etc from other manufacturers and added one of their own lenses of varying focal lengths and apertures. These were then sold through their network, but the sales were very low, hence the rarity and high prices. I have yet to see the Klapp variant, which must have been even less successful than the Moment.

William 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by willeica

[kangaroo2012]

This is the link to Franz Bergmann on this site by his grand daughter.

Cheers

Philip