doctorb Posted August 29, 2007 Author Share #21 Posted August 29, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sorry to keep you all waiting and thanks for your interest. Need to go to job to pay for M8!! Took some shots in mirror and leveled camera and mirror frame to same degree and shot image of this. Took shot of M8 in mirror. Took shot of door frame leveled with rangefinder view lines. Unfortunatly my results are not consistent indicating user error. Although I still see all of my horizon images skewed to right. When shooting with M8 I actually need to correct for the lean to the right by shooting by leaning ot the left to achieve straight horizon (all correctable of course in PS and LR). What's frustrating is that this rarely happens with my D200 and other cameras. Maybe I'm getting old or not holding a rangfinder correctly (have tons of shots with Mamiya 7II and Contax G2 outfits and no problems). I'll take some more shots and report back. I'm not sure if my photos will post, so look for later posts for photos of what i'm referring to. Thanks again. Mark M8 M7 Wate 28 cron asph 35 cron asph 50 lux asph 90mm elmarit-m 135mm apo-telyt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 29, 2007 Posted August 29, 2007 Hi doctorb, Take a look here tilted horizon means tilted rangefinder?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
doctorb Posted August 29, 2007 Author Share #22 Posted August 29, 2007 Here's a typical shot not corrected in CS or LR. Ok, it's not much of a tilt, but it's there and I rarely see it with my mamiya 7 or nikon d200. it's very consitent with the M8. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/31925-tilted-horizon-means-tilted-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=340958'>More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 29, 2007 Share #23 Posted August 29, 2007 Mark, since your first batch of photos didn't post, I've only got one to look at, and I probably wouldn't have noticed the tilt if you hadn't said it's tilted. Nonetheless, when I open a file in Photoshop, I always do check it for squareness and often make corrections if it doesn't meet my criteria, so I understand your concern. I want to hear from others on the matter, but for me there's nothing wrong with the horizon in this shot. It's close to right, and it isn't uncommon for me to have results this far off or even a bit worse. However, for me that happens with the M8, the D200, the Digilux 2 and other cameras. In my case I think it's often a case of lining up the image and then doing one more check of subject, focus etc--and apparently moving the camera during that check. But in addition, on numerous occasions I've lined up the camera carefully on the tripod, only to find when I get home that I hadn't been quite as careful as I thought. And again, that's with SLR or rangefinder. I have astigmatism and wear glasses and occasionally wonder if that influences my accuracy; but no matter, I keep practicing and I think I'm improving. And practicing is a lot less expensive with digital media than with film! --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 29, 2007 Share #24 Posted August 29, 2007 My head's beginning to hurt on this one. As a rigorous scientific test, the picture posted is ridiculous. What is so difficult about mounting the camera on a tripod, placing a $3.99 spirit level from Home Depot on the top, in four directions to make sure the camera is level and taking a picture of a wall with a plumbline suspended from the top? Forget the viewfinder, other than to make sure it's pointing at the wall, not you, and just look at the image. Is the string vertical or not? If it is, that says the sensor is square. If not, the sensor is misaligned and you have reached this conclustion without reference to the viewfinder. Then look through the viewfinder. Is the string parallel to the frame sides and the frameline verticals? If it is, the viewfinder is level. If not, the (probably) framelines are out. Finally, handhold the camera and take a picture. Is the string vertical? If so, all is fine, if not, your eyesight is to blame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 29, 2007 Share #25 Posted August 29, 2007 Here's a typical shot not corrected in CS or LR. Ok, it's not much of a tilt, but it's there and I rarely see it with my mamiya 7 or nikon d200. it's very consitent with the M8. I'm sorry. On my monitor I do not see a horizon, tilted or otherwise. I do see it would have been better to remove the filter on order to avoid the ring around the sun, though... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted August 29, 2007 Share #26 Posted August 29, 2007 Have to agree with Mark on this one. Jack's suggestion about taking a close up shot looking into a mirror is a great one. I did it with both my M8' and then zoomed into them on the LCD to see if the top of the camera lined up with the top edge of the LCD. I then took them into PS and pulled down a guide line and guess what, it lined up with the top of the camera. You could hold the camera at a 45° angle and it will still line up IF the sensor is mounted square to the body. It is a very simple test and very easy to do. You can also check the framelines this way. Just line up the frame lines with the top of the camera when taking the shot. You do the same as me, you hold the camera slightly higher on the right hand side. So you must be right handed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 29, 2007 Share #27 Posted August 29, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) It has to do with the shutter release placement. I just now tested it with my Canon 10D. If I hold it with my finger on the shutter button, which is in front of the camera on the grip, the camera is level, as soon as I move my finger to the "Leica-position"on top of the camera, the thing tilts left, each and every time. It take a conscious effort to prevent this effect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 29, 2007 Share #28 Posted August 29, 2007 Yes, I too agree that Jack's suggestion is excellent! Also good for checking frameline coverage. Just place the camera red dot in the corner of the frame in the viewfinder and take a picture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorb Posted August 29, 2007 Author Share #29 Posted August 29, 2007 Here is a typical photo with horizon canted to right. Most of the the time it's a bit worse than this. Easily correctable in PS or LR of course, but still, to see this happen on almost every image unless I make a conscious effort to tip the camera to the left to compensate, is certainly a bit tiresome. Next photo is a mirror shot as Jack recommended. Mark Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/31925-tilted-horizon-means-tilted-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=341372'>More sharing options...
brucek Posted August 29, 2007 Share #30 Posted August 29, 2007 To me that looks like it's well within the range of user error. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorb Posted August 29, 2007 Author Share #31 Posted August 29, 2007 Here are some more images. First image is of a door frame, looks like it has the cant to the left? Second and third images are mirror shots per Jack's suggestion (please advise if this is what you meant by mirror shot)? The last image is of a the frame of the mirror after the camera and mirror frame were both checked with a high quality level. I'm going to swap M8's with my neighbor and shoot his camera for an afternoon/evening to see if there's a difference. I'll also post more shots of the tilted horizon. It's not much of a tilt, but it is consistently visible on my M8 shots and not so with my other cameras. Curious?? Mark Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/31925-tilted-horizon-means-tilted-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=341428'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 29, 2007 Share #32 Posted August 29, 2007 I notice you are holding the M8 wrong; Turn you left hand palm upwards and let the camera rest on it, use your fingers to work the lens. Grip it fully that way you will get better results.On both the top and bottom shot I doubt you were holding the camera parallel to the wall/mirror.That way parallax influences the result. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 29, 2007 Share #33 Posted August 29, 2007 I think I figured out what you are doing, if i am seeing this correctly it is the right side down more than the left. Correct Than it looks to me a simple case of pushing down on the shutter and the camera drops instead of squeezing the shutter down. In large terms your just pushing the right side down at the time of exposure and not having you left hand actually hold the camera as Jaap said it is easier to punch down. Get that left hand underneath it than sqeeeeeeeeeeeeze the shutter , my bet is you will do better. Try it NUS new user syndrome, been there before Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucek Posted August 29, 2007 Share #34 Posted August 29, 2007 I'm not sure I'm going to explain this properly but I'll give it a try. It almost looks to me that what we're seeing here isn't a tilt due so much to the camera as it is the lens. When I look at these pictures I see a gradual curvature down and to the right. That is not what I would expect to see if the camera or sensor were tilted at an angle. In that case I would expect to see a straight line without curvature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted August 29, 2007 Share #35 Posted August 29, 2007 Well in your shots in the mirror it looks like you are angling the camera to the mirror. Shutter release side farther away then the viewfinder side. Not sure why you are not looking through the viewfinder when you are taking these shot. You can't look that hideous. I'll post one when I get home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 29, 2007 Share #36 Posted August 29, 2007 That is what I mean with parallax. Compare the angle of the bottom of the camera - hardly tilted if at all, to the perspective of the top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted August 29, 2007 Share #37 Posted August 29, 2007 Here's your second shot after being brought into PS 6 and running a guide line at the top and bottom. There is a space between the cameras right side, as you view it in this post, top and bottom. That means the camera was angled to the mirror, shutter side farther away then the viewfinder side. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Other then that the camera looks perfect. It is you that is holding the camera right side high. Making the image look like it is running down hill from left to right Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Other then that the camera looks perfect. It is you that is holding the camera right side high. Making the image look like it is running down hill from left to right ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/31925-tilted-horizon-means-tilted-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=341670'>More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 29, 2007 Share #38 Posted August 29, 2007 The camera is angled upwards in the first shot, hence the converging verticals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorb Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share #39 Posted August 30, 2007 Camera was held that way so as to expose bottom plate for viewing against bottom edge of image. I am also having problems viewing new posts on regular page, and can only see new posts (replies) on my editing page. Is this happenning for anyone else?/ (Be kind). Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorb Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share #40 Posted August 30, 2007 Am now seeing all posts. Thanks for the comments. Of course I do not hold and shoot a camera this way. Will take Mark Norton's recent plumline suggestion and report back. Mark more photos of tilted horizons: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/31925-tilted-horizon-means-tilted-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=341885'>More sharing options...
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