doctorb Posted August 26, 2007 Share #1 Posted August 26, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) When shooting with my M8, I've noticed that all my images with horizons tilt off to the right, and i thought it was me despite my ability to not to this with other cameras. Stupid me, I realized last night shooting sunsets that it's the camera. This may have been covered in previous posts, but can the rangfinder view be off in the M8? I now shoot tilted left to correct for the tilt in the final image, and that works fine. I just hope that doesn't carry over when shooting other cameras (sorry to admit this fact owning the M8). Can this be corrected by the good Leica people in NJ? Thanks Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 26, 2007 Posted August 26, 2007 Hi doctorb, Take a look here tilted horizon means tilted rangefinder?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted August 26, 2007 Share #2 Posted August 26, 2007 I suggest you do a controlled test by mounting the camera on a tripod and using a spirit level, such as you can buy at Home Depot to ensure the top plate is perfectly horizontal. You can then look through the viewfinder and check if the image looks correct. If you are referencing the viewfinder frames, it's possible the frame carrier is out of alignment or indeed the entire viewfinder is not level inside the camera. It could also be the sensor is misaligned, so taking pictures having set the camera perfectly horizontal will tell you where the problem lies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walt Posted August 26, 2007 Share #3 Posted August 26, 2007 In addition to Mark's suggestions, I'd point out that the bottom edge of the frame lines is (unlike other M cameras) split into two pieces, with the center section missing. I find that this is misleading in terms of leveling and that it is important to use the upper frameline for leveling. Walt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorb Posted August 26, 2007 Author Share #4 Posted August 26, 2007 Thanks for all of the comments. I have used a bubble level to verify the tilted horizon. I am afraid it's the sensor that is misaligned (just because it sounds more serious-only the paranoid survive, eh?), not the framelines (I reference the top frameline to the water line of the ocean with camera mounted on tripod, and horizon and water line tilts right). So is there a way to discern between frameline misalignment or sensor mounted askew? Thnaks for all of your help! Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted August 26, 2007 Share #5 Posted August 26, 2007 The only way to check this is to mount a level on a wall, or mark a line on a wall (piece of paper mounted to a wall) with a level and mount the camera on a tripod. Use a level to level the camera and check the line/level on the wall and make the camera as close to 90° from the center of the line level to see if the line/level lines up with the frame lines. If it does then take a shot of it and view that shot it on a PC monitor (Not on the little screen on the back of the camera) to check if the sensor is alligned level to the top of the camera and viewfinder. If any of this is off then you need to send it in to be properly alligned. I tend to hold the camera with a slight right hand higher hold, or at least I did when I first started using the M8, and also thought the viewfinder may be off until I did the check described above. Now I make sure I hold with my right hand level, or as close as I can determine, with my left hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Flesher Posted August 26, 2007 Share #6 Posted August 26, 2007 You can check sensor level in the camrea by shooting a picture of yourself in a mirror with a longer lens, relatively close. No matter if you hold the camera at a slight angle, the bottom of the M8's refelction should be parallel with the bottom of the actual frame. Just try and make sure you are facing square to the mirror to avoid excessive geometric distortion. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 26, 2007 Share #7 Posted August 26, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) When all is said and done, this is something all we RF shooters do, righthanded ones tend to the left... I would take a hard look before blaming the rangefinder, and a sensor tilted that much? I have a feeling that is extremely unlikely if at all possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 28, 2007 Share #8 Posted August 28, 2007 Don't leave us hanging, Mark! I've never heard of a tilted rangefinder on a Leica M and want to know what you discover. I'm in Jaap's camp, but there have been some good suggestions here about deciding the matter, so I'm looking forward to hearing the outcome! The phenomenon is apparently not limited to us rangefinder users, since the Nikon D3 offers automatic horizon leveling. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 28, 2007 Share #9 Posted August 28, 2007 [quote name=ho_co;340690) The phenomenon is apparently not limited to us rangefinder users' date=' since the Nikon D3 offers automatic horizon leveling. --HC[/quote] No I really have heard it all , are you serious . Honestly what' next the camera will raw process too. STUPID idea, what happens when you don't want to be level. It corrects it for you. Sorry but WHO the hell is driving here. Stuff like this is just dumb marketing garbage and will take folks vision away. Sorry but stuff like this is what drives me more to leica Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted August 28, 2007 Share #10 Posted August 28, 2007 Actually, I got the impression that the image was not automatically levelled, but there was an artificial horizon built into the LCD that you can turn on, that will tell you if you are lined up with the real horizon. I have the impression that it was done for people shooting in places (like mountains or canyons or in fog) where the real horizon is not obvious. N'est-ce pas? JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSee Posted August 28, 2007 Share #11 Posted August 28, 2007 In addition to Mark's suggestions, I'd point out that the bottom edge of the frame lines is (unlike other M cameras) split into two pieces, with the center section missing. I find that this is misleading in terms of leveling and that it is important to use the upper frameline for leveling. Walt "Use the patch, Luke!" Framelines are a guide, and inaccurate at that: the focus patch is represented consistently, and will instruct you on top-to-bottom and side-to-side "square" most effectively... learned this with film Ms. Framelines mislead those who lean too heavily on them(when the V/RF window and patch are constant) Yes, it could be the V/RF or sensor, but as Jaap mentions, I'll concur that--especially with 24+ wides--a "little" tendency right/left will certainly be read/seen in the image. Now, if the focus patch and V/RF view(ignore framelines here) is off when your kit is on a tripod... you do have a hardware fault. Sorry to learn if this is so. rgds, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 28, 2007 Share #12 Posted August 28, 2007 Actually, I got the impression that the image was not automatically levelled, but there was an artificial horizon built into the LCD that you can turn on, that will tell you if you are lined up with the real horizon. I have the impression that it was done for people shooting in places (like mountains or canyons or in fog) where the real horizon is not obvious. N'est-ce pas? Or maybe when you're shooting below decks and your ankles are wet and you wonder if the ship is sinking? Dingnab it, John, you caught me again. I can't guess who it was done for, but you're right that it's an artificial horizon available when needed. I guess with a camera as sophisticated as a D3 you couldn't expect someone to use a spirit level--particularly now that Leica gives one away free with every Universal Finder. Guy, I conflated and inflated, and John deflated. Gotta get my equilibrium. Sorry, guys! --HC PS--I just had a thought: If Leica were to completely waterproof the M8, we could pour water in up to half the height of the VF and have our own built-in spirit level. Or better, turn the camera upside down to access the water; that would require less, and then we could use it also when the camera is turned for a vertical if the left end is down. Oh, drat. Airport security probably wouldn't let you board with an M8 unless you drank the liquid first. Back to the drawing board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorb Posted August 28, 2007 Author Share #13 Posted August 28, 2007 I am taking an image of an incredibly accurate Starrett (and expensive) level after using same level to level M8 on oversized Gitzo (1348) tripod. So the leveled camera will be taking a photo of the leveled level (still with me). I'll take the shot close to the edge of the frame to enhance any leveling isues. Will work on this tomorrow and report. Does this test sound logical? Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveB Posted August 28, 2007 Share #14 Posted August 28, 2007 I would expect your sunsets photographed in the southern hemisphere to tilt in the opposite direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted August 28, 2007 Share #15 Posted August 28, 2007 I am taking an image of an incredibly accurate Starrett (and expensive) level after using same level to level M8 on oversized Gitzo (1348) tripod. So the leveled camera will be taking a photo of the leveled level (still with me). I'll take the shot close to the edge of the frame to enhance any leveling isues. Will work on this tomorrow and report. Does this test sound logical? Mark Mark, Given that your incredibly expensive M8 may have a problem, I wouldn't necessarily trust your incredibly expensive Starrett level to be accurate. Be sure to check it by turning it 180 degrees on a known level surface to see if the bubble in the vial is centered in both positions. Good luck! Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 28, 2007 Share #16 Posted August 28, 2007 Larry's point is a good one - even a low cost level can be proved to be accurate by turning it through 180 degrees - you can be certain the surface is level if the indication remains the same. Keep in mind too that two transparent tubes connected by a piece of hose and filled with water make a perfect level. Irrespective of the inclination of the tubes, the water will find it's own level. Besides, how off are the horizons? A gut-wrenching 20 degrees, surely not, but 1, 2 degrees? You can use photoshop to rotate in canvas in small increments to estimate how off it is. It's important that you do not use the viewfinder in this test to adjust the camera other than general aiming. Be guided only by the level and then evaluate, separately, the images from the camera and how it looks through the viewfinder. Finally, in case it is something to do with your eyesight or any glasses or contacts you wear, get a second opinion from someone who will not laugh at the geekishness of your experiment and advise you to acquire a life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 28, 2007 Share #17 Posted August 28, 2007 Mark, is it at all possible for the sensor to be fitted skewed? Even the framelines - I cannot quite see how that could happen - not to put the OP down -genuine interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Flesher Posted August 28, 2007 Share #18 Posted August 28, 2007 Mark, is it at all possible for the sensor to be fitted skewed? Even the framelines - I cannot quite see how that could happen - not to put the OP down -genuine interest. Yes it is -- which is why I suggested he shoot a picture into a mirror to test for it. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted August 28, 2007 Share #19 Posted August 28, 2007 Mark, is it at all possible for the sensor to be fitted skewed? Even the framelines - I cannot quite see how that could happen - not to put the OP down -genuine interest. the viewfinder frame of my Nikon FM2 is skewed, the frame lines in my Mamiya 7II are also skewed. I discovered the Nikon had a problem when i fitted a focussing screen with gridlines, and the Mamiya when using a tripod and looking at a particularly geometric subject. I havnt had a wonky sensor yet,but I see no reason why it should happen from time to time... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 28, 2007 Share #20 Posted August 28, 2007 Mark, is it at all possible for the sensor to be fitted skewed? Even the framelines - I cannot quite see how that could happen - not to put the OP down -genuine interest. My first response to the the original post was exactly that - that the sensor was skew in the camera but I deleted it and replaced it with the seemingly more likely problem of the framelines being tilted. The sensor is mounted on an aluminium carrier and mounted to the die-casting at three points. The top two have additional locating holes which fit over tapered lugs in the die-casting just to ensure that the sensor is horizontal. That pre-supposes that the sensor is bonded - by small amounts of epoxy on each edge - to the plate in the correct position. It will be done on a jig but it's possible it moved at some point and the alignment went wrong. [Other] Mark, if you open the shutter on "B" with the lens off, does the innermost frame of the sensor look square to the rest of the camera, or can you detect a tilt there? If it's off, the camera will need to have the sensor/sensor board replaced. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/31925-tilted-horizon-means-tilted-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=340466'>More sharing options...
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