SL System v. (All) — LONG READ

[chris_tribble]

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Maybe I’m missing a point somewhere, but isn’t the point of buying Leica that their lenses are good. I won’t say best, I won’t say superlative. But I know that they’re some of the best glass I’ve ever used (and I ran Canon L glass for decades). I have the SL because it gives me a platform for the Leica 24-90 and 90-280 plus APO 35 and 75, AND for a family of M glass. Nothing else does that so well and meets my needs for all photography. If I shot video maybe I’d make another choice. But I don’t - so end of story for me. 🙂

[Einst_Stein]

What would you compare SL vs. SL2, vs. SL2-S?  Is that easier to compare then Leica SL vs. (All)?

[LD_50]

42 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

What would you compare SL vs. SL2, vs. SL2-S?  Is that easier to compare then Leica SL vs. (All)?

I have no idea what that means. It’s not difficult to compare camera systems. To get to the SL I compared to what was available in 2015. To get to the SL2-S I compared to what’s available now. 

[Tom1234]

4 hours ago, chris_tribble said:

Maybe I’m missing a point somewhere, but isn’t the point of buying Leica that their lenses are good. I won’t say best, I won’t say superlative. But I know that they’re some of the best glass I’ve ever used (and I ran Canon L glass for decades). I have the SL because it gives me a platform for the Leica 24-90 and 90-280 plus APO 35 and 75, AND for a family of M glass. Nothing else does that so well and meets my needs for all photography. If I shot video maybe I’d make another choice. But I don’t - so end of story for me. 🙂

Me too.  Its the lenses that keep me into Leica…

The bodies have had better colors science (M8 M9 M9M) but until the SL2-S they did not have a high ISO camera (low light is Leica's way or used to be), and color science and, ease of focusing Leica-M glass due to better viewfinder at higher resolution.  Now old Leica-M glass has a new lease on life and the history of lens-craft can be seen.  It might be a new golden age for Leica.

A professional cinematographer friend of mine said that acceptance into the professional community is slow.  Too bad they did not have an articulating rear screen that video users love and need… yet in that professional environment maybe an external monitor-recorder is the way to go.  If I were Leica I would publish an article about a smallest-add-on-monitor that can be moved in 3 dimensions… there must be some ultra-small-rig approace to getting this without totally distroying the walk around convenience of the basic body? 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Tom1234
spelling

[hansvons]

18 minutes ago, Tom1234 said:

 

A professional cinematographer friend of mine said that acceptance into the professional community is slow.  Too bad they did not have an articulating rear screen that video users love and need… yet in that professional environment maybe an external monitor-recorder is the way to go.  If I were Leica I would publish an article about a smallest-add-on-monitor that can be moved in 3 dimensions… there must be some ultra-small-rig approace to getting this without totally distroying the walk around convenience of the basic body? 

Most cinematographers don’t own gear but recommend the producers what to rent. This is the market of Arri and the Sony Venice, or the top-tier Red. Within this market, there is no debate about whether the gear is costly or not. It must be able to take a beating and always deliver the best without fail. 

The SL2-S isn’t competing in this market, of course. It is a little mirror-less stills camera at first. Its competitors by specs are the Sony As and Canon Rs and the Nikon Zs, etc... They can do the same but also sport a flippy screen and have better AF. No one who is seriously buying a hybrid camera for making money will pay the premium for a Leica and get less. Their clients won’t see the difference and, even if they would, wouldn’t pay the premium. But some productions are shot on Arri, where the DOP or the director want a small kind of third unit camera to shoot along with the big guns. Or they want a camera with premium colour and lenses that match in many ways the best cinema glass and camera footage for their own much smaller projects. This is the SL2-S market.

Typical Leica in a way because it’s somewhat luxury-driven and somewhat professional. These people don’t need an articulating screen; they are used to trading convenience for endurance and shoot with an EVF anyway. Or they rig their Leica with an Atomos monitor for proper ProRes recording.

Like any other Leica, the SL2-S is very much a niche product too. 

[Tom1234]

Hansvons:

Myself, as someone who went to film school years ago, I am one of Leica's potential markets.  Their approach to issue new lenses that have something different from their old lenses is an artist's approach and I love that.  

From what you are saying and I am saying together, Leica is a strange bird, iconoclastic brand, a mix of market approaches, well pick you favorite name, yet always high end in some way and always delivering a unique user experience in some way.

The high lens prices have knocked me out of the new ASPH lenses, which is ok, since as all makers products approach perfect like the ASPH lenses do, they all produce pictures looking more the same and loose their differentiation. 

They are making a viable independent filmmaker camera in the SL2-S since it has so many of the needed features.  

Auto focus is secondary in film making so the discount there is not a problem.  

Lens focus adjustment, marked on the lens barrel to exact distances, is one of the biggest differences between professional and home-user lenses.  

The differences from professional to amateur could also be called a camera support issue:  tripod use (professional) verses walk around use (amateur) that affects so many features like the screen articulation need and remote focus or auto focus adjustments.  

Of course today more professionals walk with the camera then in the past (SteadiCam was the old way - replaced by today's internal camera stabilization systems), but I would say that the video they make is rather cheesy not professional looking, and that that poor video work has become acceptable do to the existence of youtube and selfies being so ubiquitous. 

Amateur is not a bad word.  It comes from the Latin "amator" meaning "lover of" something.  Those that love an avocation may outdo those doing the same for daily work.  Just look at the photos on this site and others where I see many stunning shots that seldom occur in the commercial world aimed mostly at selling something or copying someone else's work. 

[Einst_Stein]

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5 hours ago, LD_50 said:

I have no idea what that means. It’s not difficult to compare camera systems. To get to the SL I compared to what was available in 2015. To get to the SL2-S I compared to what’s available now. 

I thought you were talking about the difference of SL system vs. all.  

[Archiver]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:43 AM, Tom1234 said:

They are making a viable independent filmmaker camera in the SL2-S since it has so many of the needed features.  

Auto focus is secondary in film making so the discount there is not a problem.  

Lens focus adjustment, marked on the lens barrel to exact distances, is one of the biggest differences between professional and home-user lenses.  

The differences from professional to amateur could also be called a camera support issue:  tripod use (professional) verses walk around use (amateur) that affects so many features like the screen articulation need and remote focus or auto focus adjustments.  

Of course today more professionals walk with the camera then in the past (SteadiCam was the old way - replaced by today's internal camera stabilization systems), but I would say that the video they make is rather cheesy not professional looking, and that that poor video work has become acceptable do to the existence of youtube and selfies being so ubiquitous.

I would say the distinction is less about professional vs amateur, and more about style and budget. 'Film making' is so broad that it is difficult to accurately assert that 'professionals use tripods and amateurs go hand held'. Of course, in large productions which involve high end cinema cameras like the Alexa, Venice or RED Epic, it will be more likely that the DoP will opt for rigging like tripods, cranes, dollies and full Steadicam rigs, because the budget allows the use of such rigging, it provides higher production value, and doesn't kill the camera operator with its weight. A production that has the budget for this kind of rigging should have the budget for a high end cinema camera, and the SL2-S isn't in that field.

It's fully acceptable to go handheld with an Alexa Mini and use a body mounted inflatable cushion for support. Many independent productions that use cinema cameras use shoulder rigs, gimbals, or the back-mounted EasyRig. Some combine a gimbal with the EasyRig to make things even smoother, and less hard on the operator. This reduces costs and physical footprint while maximizing image quality and camera robustness.

The SL2-S isn't alone in the world of high end video camera in mirrorless form factor. The Sony A7S III, the new FX3, and the Panasonic S1H have all the video features of the SL2-S and more. The Leica is a decent option for a mirrorless video camera, but there are other options with even more features. Even the Panasonic S5 is being touted as a mini-S1H, and it has the colour science of the Panasonic Varicam cinema camera for a tiny fraction of the cost.

[Tom1234]

1 hour ago, Archiver said:

Even the Panasonic S5 is being touted as a mini-S1H, and it has the colour science of the Panasonic Varicam cinema camera for a tiny fraction of the cost.

 

I am eager to see how the Panasonic S5 does in the market/user space.  its lower weight of .47 lb (7.6  oz) is said to really help toward a full day of hand holding.  And S5 has an articulating back screen. 

 

https://cameradecision.com/compare/Leica-SL2-S-vs-Panasonic-Lumix-DC-S5

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https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-camera/leica-sl2-s-vs-panasonic-s5

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4540312

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/compare/Leica_SL2-S_vs_Panasonic_DC-S5/BHitems/1609644-REG_1583509-REG

I wish Leica would do their own version of the S5.

 

[LD_50]

1 hour ago, Tom1234 said:

 

I am eager to see how the Panasonic S5 does in the market/user space.  its lower weight of .47 lb (7.6  oz) is said to really help toward a full day of hand holding.  And S5 has an articulating back screen. 

 

https://cameradecision.com/compare/Leica-SL2-S-vs-Panasonic-Lumix-DC-S5

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-camera/leica-sl2-s-vs-panasonic-s5

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4540312

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/compare/Leica_SL2-S_vs_Panasonic_DC-S5/BHitems/1609644-REG_1583509-REG

I wish Leica would do their own version of the S5.

 

To get to S5 weight and price there are sacrifices which would keep me from buying:

- EVF quality is significantly reduced

- no top screen

- thermal management is worse

- weather sealing is not as good as the S1, so much lower than SL2-S

Leica could surely make a smaller SL body, but it would eliminate a lot of what I like about the SL and would only save a couple hundred grams.

[billh]

On 3/3/2021 at 2:44 PM, Simone_DF said:

I had a Sony A7rIV and I too prefer the SL2 EVF

What is the image quality difference? I have a variety of M cameras, but the most recent digital is the M9P. I also have a Q2M which I love. I've been hearing the SL primes are better than the M lenses, and despite the size and weight I'm temped to try the SL2 instead of the M10R. However, I do have a Sony A7R IV, and I'd really like to know if the SL2 image quality is better than I get from the A7r IV. Thanks.

[billh]

On 3/10/2021 at 6:41 PM, Tom1234 said:

Many thanks for your input.  You get A+ obviously. Four out of four.  I am looking into a new SL2-S.

Thank you. This is the one question I have. I have the A9 for action, and the A7r IV falls short when it comes to AF tracking, so I only use it for the higher resolution.

 

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, billh said:

What is the image quality difference? I have a variety of M cameras, but the most recent digital is the M9P. I also have a Q2M which I love. I've been hearing the SL primes are better than the M lenses, and despite the size and weight I'm temped to try the SL2 instead of the M10R. However, I do have a Sony A7R IV, and I'd really like to know if the SL2 image quality is better than I get from the A7r IV. Thanks.

That is very subjective. I liked the SL2 images more than the A7rIV images, but the Sony is better at higher iso and shadow recovery and of course has better AF. In the end I sold both. I think I'll skip this SL generation, the AF seems a lost cause and that is a very important factor for me. I may get a S5 instead. 

[Tom1234]

1 minute ago, Simone_DF said:

That is very subjective. I liked the SL2 images more than the A7rIV images, but the Sony is better at higher iso and shadow recovery and of course has better AF. In the end I sold both. I think I'll skip this SL generation, the AF seems a lost cause and that is a very important factor for me. I may get a S5 instead. 

If you get it, please tell us about the S5 verses the SL and A7rIV.

[LD_50]

13 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

That is very subjective. I liked the SL2 images more than the A7rIV images, but the Sony is better at higher iso and shadow recovery and of course has better AF. In the end I sold both. I think I'll skip this SL generation, the AF seems a lost cause and that is a very important factor for me. I may get a S5 instead. 

I posted on another thread about the S5’s AF improvements. Have you tested it? 

I am wondering if the SL2-S firmware update will include those same updates.

 

S5 upgrades as described by DPReview:

“AF improvements on the S5 fall into two general categories: better and faster recognition of subjects (using deep learning technology) and improvements to the way DFD calculations are made.

To start, the S5 includes a head-detection algorithm in addition to face, eye and body recognition, so that the camera is less likely to struggle when a subject turns away from the camera. Additionally, it can now detect a face that takes up as little as 2.5% of the frame, versus 5% on other S-series cameras. Other tweaks allow the S5 to make autofocus calculations 60 times a second for bodies and faces, whereas the company's othermodels do so at 12 and 30 calculations a second, respectively.”

[Tom1234]

3 minutes ago, LD_50 said:

I posted on another thread about the S5’s AF improvements. Have you tested it? 

I am wondering if the SL2-S firmware update will include those same updates.

 

 

S5 upgrades as described by DPReview:

“AF improvements on the S5 fall into two general categories: better and faster recognition of subjects (using deep learning technology) and improvements to the way DFD calculations are made.

To start, the S5 includes a head-detection algorithm in addition to face, eye and body recognition, so that the camera is less likely to struggle when a subject turns away from the camera. Additionally, it can now detect a face that takes up as little as 2.5% of the frame, versus 5% on other S-series cameras. Other tweaks allow the S5 to make autofocus calculations 60 times a second for bodies and faces, whereas the company's othermodels do so at 12 and 30 calculations a second, respectively.”

We need an S5 for Leica-M lenses thread.

[Tom1234]

Just now, Tom1234 said:

We need an S5 for Leica-M lenses thread.

Found it: 

 

[LD_50]

6 minutes ago, Tom1234 said:

We need an S5 for Leica-M lenses thread.

I was asking about AF upgrades. M lenses don’t apply. 

[LD_50]

2 hours ago, LD_50 said:

I posted on another thread about the S5’s AF improvements. Have you tested it? 

I am wondering if the SL2-S firmware update will include those same updates.

 

 

S5 upgrades as described by DPReview:

“AF improvements on the S5 fall into two general categories: better and faster recognition of subjects (using deep learning technology) and improvements to the way DFD calculations are made.

To start, the S5 includes a head-detection algorithm in addition to face, eye and body recognition, so that the camera is less likely to struggle when a subject turns away from the camera. Additionally, it can now detect a face that takes up as little as 2.5% of the frame, versus 5% on other S-series cameras. Other tweaks allow the S5 to make autofocus calculations 60 times a second for bodies and faces, whereas the company's othermodels do so at 12 and 30 calculations a second, respectively.”

Well I had a few minutes to try a Panasonic S5 and a Sony A7RIV. I didn’t have a card with me so this was just quick testing with each in store and reviewing on the back screens. I was able to set up each to my liking. The Sony menus are as bad as I remember. The whole GUI is terrible for me. 

The S5 is too small for me with too many buttons too close together. I set up face tracking and it was very quick and did a great job holding onto the face as I moved the camera around. It highlights the selected eye with a sort of cross hair. I was really surprised by the speed of face tracking and regular AFc tracking. Flutter looked much better in the EVF than my SL2-S, though the EVF feels small and dim.

The A7RIV surprisingly seemed to have much more trouble grabbing an eye to focus on and holding it. It gave up much more quickly than the S5. I prefer the S5’s method of highlighting an eye to the Sony’s small box over the eye. Tracking also seemed less sticky. This EVF was better but still not as good as the SL2-S. 

I expected the Sony to outperform the Panasonic but it didn’t in this very limited test. Actual results might prove the Sony more accurate or consistent but I didn’t see it through the EVF. The S5 was very quick to focus and very capable in tracking so I hope the firmware update to the SL2-S brings these same improvements. 

Obviously the A9II and A1 would be much better than the model I was able to quickly test. 

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[Tom1234]

Thank you for the hands on review.  Good to know about the size issue with the hands.  The same happened in the 1970's as Nikon went to FM and EM downsized bodies in response to Olympus downsizing... I found them all too small for my hands and the controls too much of a pain to use.  My older bigger heavier EL2 from Nikon was much better.  The SL2-S form factor is looking better all the time.