How can I stop film curling?

[levegh]

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As s way to divert myself during Covid lockdown, I am trying to persuade some very old expired film to give me some results. I am getting somewhere, but the film curls quite fiercely. I have tried weighting the end of the drying film as heavily as I dare and I have tried flattening the dry film under a substantial pile of books. This is not a problem I have encountered before and it is making it difficult to scan as it is hard to keep flat. The curl is sufficiently robust to lift qute a heavy piece of glass. I will try any helpful suggestions. 

[Chuck Albertson]

I tried the same thing last year with some years-out-of-date TMax 400. A week under someone's monograph didn't do anything for the curl. My mates in the darkroom got tired of my cursing when I tried to get it to lie flat in the contact printing frame, so I binned the rest of it (unexposed).

[Stuart Richardson]

Would you eat a 25 year old can of beans? It's basically the same thing. Film ages slowly, but it does age. Very old film like this tends to do this. Beyond weight and flattening, I am not sure you have too many options. You could try rewashing and making sure the film is dried slowly and in a medium high humidity. Film can start to curl if it is dried too rapidly or if it loses all the humidity. I do not know, but if I had to guess, that over the years the gelatin diminishes in its ability to hold moisture, and becomes stiffer and more brittle, and therefore more likely to hold the shape that it was in. I have processed a number of 40 plus year old films for clients and they have almost always been like this. I never found a solution beyond cursing and a glass negative carrier or tape on the flextight holder.

[levegh]

There is some reassurance in knowing that old film invariably suffers from this problem: I shall persist. Of course, it would be sensible to throw away the film, but we are in the middle of lockdown. Trying to get a result out of long expired film not only passes the time, but it is a challenge. My film photography makes as little difference to the world or even those around me as reading books new to me and re-reading books loved by me for decades. But the world inside my head is an entirely different place; long expired film has a place there. As this particular film was created at roughly the same time as my parents created me, I might regard it as an analogue of my life. It is worth a bit of effort, I think.

Any further comments will be gratefully received. Thank you, Stuart and Chuck.

 

Stuart

[105012]

Hello Stuart, you write well and I love your sentiments. As to the subject, I have only used fresh (-ish) film, though the FujiFilm Acros 100 (original, expired 2016) has a vicious curl indeed compared with fresh Tri-X or C-41 from Kodak. I don’t find it a problem either in the scanner or the enlarger and have not tried to straighten it. 

Command, FujiFilm Acros 100, Leica M3, Voigtlander 28/3.5.

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[Aryel]

Hello,

I am a newbee in the darkroom and never had this problem (yet). Would a pair of cotton gloves and a negative carrier with glass below and on top of the negative solve it?

I truly hope you will find a way to use this film.

 

[M.Hilo]

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I have a lot of sympathy for the question and yes, a negative carrier with two glasses should be okay to press flat the film. The gloves, hmm, I never use them but I also never touch anything but the sides of the film. It is one of the things you just don't do.

Then, I do think it is unwise to use long-expired film. I am all for experiments with photography, except not when it comes to film. You will become good in printing when you create a dialogue between your film developing and your printing. For instance, when you always need to use higher contrast filters, you probably do not move the developing tanks enough. That is what you must teach yourself. It takes time to understand everything there is to understand. Using old film prevents that because there is no way of learning from film that is fogged or has just lost contrast.

Also, shooting is for real. You will always shoot some images that are important to you. Later on you will curse yourself for having used outdated film.

[M.Hilo]

2 minutes ago, M.Hilo said:

I have a lot of sympathy for the question and yes, a negative carrier with two glasses should be okay to press flat the film. The gloves, hmm, I never use them but I also never touch anything but the sides of the film. It is one of the things you just don't do.

Then, I do think it is unwise to use long-expired film. I am all for experiments with photography, except not when it comes to film. You will become good in printing when you create a dialogue between your film developing and your printing. For instance, when you always need to use higher contrast filters, you probably do not move the developing tanks enough. That is what you must teach yourself. It takes time to understand everything there is to understand. Using old film prevents that because there is no way of learning anything from film that is fogged or has just lost contrast.

Also, shooting is for real. You will always shoot some images that are important to you. Later on you will curse yourself for having used outdated film.

 

[levegh]

To M.Hilo

I understand and agree, but I am not stopping shooting in-date film. Lockdown will not end for a few weeks. I have had one jab of vaccine and will not get out to my favourite spots in the South Downs for a couple of weeks. When I do, and if I have had some success with the expired film, I will take two cameras and both new and ancient film. Thus far, I have kept myself busy from breakfast till bedtime during this tedious time without pubs, restaurants, theatres, motor races, rugby matches, cricket or friends; the expired film has been part of the last three days of diverting myself. I will use it in a Leica III of which I am the second owner. Taking the best photographs which my limited skill permits, does not preclude the pleasure of also getting the best that I can out of old film for purely sentimental and not entirely rational  reasons.

Stuart

[Einst_Stein]

On 2/5/2021 at 1:46 PM, levegh said:

As s way to divert myself during Covid lockdown, I am trying to persuade some very old expired film to give me some results. I am getting somewhere, but the film curls quite fiercely. I have tried weighting the end of the drying film as heavily as I dare and I have tried flattening the dry film under a substantial pile of books. This is not a problem I have encountered before and it is making it difficult to scan as it is hard to keep flat. The curl is sufficiently robust to lift qute a heavy piece of glass. I will try any helpful suggestions. 

A cheap and easy ti get solution is clear magnet acrylics two pieces frame like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Magnetic-Acrylic-Clear-Photo-Frame-Fridge-Wedding-Baby-And-Kids-Picture/313409706425?var=612276473915&hash=item48f8ac99b9:g:P2UAAOSwWYdgH1DC

I have two of these, one is 8.5”x11”, the other is 5”x7”. You

might be aboe to order the nin-standard size you wanted, such as 5”x11”.

To use it, make sure the inner surfecs are clean and dirt free. The outer surface is not critical since the acrylic ars so thick that amy imperfection is out of focus.

I try to clean the film to remove any dust to my best before opening the acrylics. I wear lint free gloves. It is also helpful to keep the bench clean. I use  a large glass as the working pad on the table to make it easier for maintainance.

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Einst_Stein

[levegh]

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I shall continue with the admittedly rather pointless task, but am now intrigued by what causes the curl. The unprocessed film is flat so, after developing, the emulsion side dries to be smaller than the base material: is that right? Heavy weight on it for several hours flattens it again, only for the curl to reassert itself gradually. Does the curl depend on the emulsion or the base? Would the film have been just as curly when new or would it, (like me, alas!) have altered with the passing of too many decades? There is no practical reason for asking the questions: I am just curious. It is a nitrate base, by the way. I believe the post war film used a different base which would no doubt have been cellulose.

Thanks again for your interest. Lockdown is making some unexpected and possibly beneficial changes to my life. I have just finished rebuilding a large format camera so that is preserved even if I do not use it. I freely admit, though, that playing with the Perutz film is as utile as building a model of Big Ben out of used matches. In view of it being nitrate base, perhaps 'used matches' is an unfortunate choice of metaphor.

Stuart

[250swb]

I've read through the thread to see if I can find what you are trying to do with your film, get it flat in an enlarger or get it flat to photo-scan? 

I've never found a way to flatten curly film permanently, and sandwiching it between glass or other risks the appearance of Newton Rings degrading the image unless you use ANR glass. One solution for photo-scanning curly film are the clever film holders called Lomography Digitalizer, available in 35mm or 120 sizes.

https://youtu.be/vMCk33_xiC8

 

[levegh]

250swb, thank you very much for the suggestion. I will buy one. I am using a camera to scan when I do not have enough bench room for a flat bed scanner. I am afraid I have been side tracked for a couple of days. I have been dummying up a folding gnomon for a pocket sundial. When I discovered that one frame of the old Perutz film would lift two ounces with ease, I realised that I had a perfect detent spring for the gnomon made from a scrap of Tufnol. I now have two pointless lockdown tasks. To the questioners who wondered what sort of idiot tries to get a recognisable image on seventy year old film, I have the perfect answer: it is the sort of idiot who wants to make a pocket sundial when he owns perfectly good watches.

And thank you again for reminding me of happy days watching 250swb at Goodwood in the early sixties. The one thing that the Goodwood Revival fails to do is to make me seventeen again.

Stuart

[Steve Ricoh]

The Beoon copy stand flattens everything I’ve thrown at it. Marvellous contraption.

[Doug A]

47 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

The Beoon copy stand flattens everything I’ve thrown at it. Marvellous contraption.

That's been my experience too. In fact, the curled negatives are easier to position in the window than the absolutely flat ones. 

[onelensman]

Whether using fresh film stock or out of date film my standard procedure to minimise film curling after processing is to reverse roll each film after drying. The emulsion side is outermost to make a coiled roll about 40mm in diameter, wrap a clean strip of paper round the coil secured with adhesive tape and leave for a least 24 hours ( longer with old film). Care must be taken to avoid scratching. When unreeling hang up vertically with weight clipped to bottom to aid straightening