Back (almost) - and around the block once more...

[Winedemonium]

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Thanks Peter, yes. This is something I need to do more of, for sure. I have the Epson SC-P808 (local variant of the P800 I believe), but I have not printed larger than A4 so far (feeling A4 is sufficient for the feedback loop on settings, paper types, etc). It's certainly true that it changes perspective a bit I have experienced, to see one's image on paper. It's also motivating, as it feels rewarding to have a print in the hand. The P808 is capable of A2, so yes, I should get going with this. Printing is the part of the process I've done least. 

[Ouroboros]

On 1/9/2021 at 8:25 AM, petermullett said:

......Printing one's images, printing them yourself rather than sending out to a pro' shop, is the best way to hone the craft irrespective of whatever camera you may have used to create the image...................

I agree with this.  There is little point in lusting after, or owning, any of the cameras and lenses being discussed here unless the ultimate goal is to make prints.

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Ouroboros

[Winedemonium]

3 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

On 1/9/2021 at 4:25 PM, petermullett said:

......Printing one's images, printing them yourself rather than sending out to a pro' shop, is the best way to hone the craft irrespective of whatever camera you may have used to create the image...................

I agree with this.  There is little point in lusting after, or owning, any of the cameras and lenses being discussed here unless the ultimate goal is to make prints.

 

I agree to a point. I think the ultimate reward for an image you take all the way through the creative process is to see it just the way you want it in print. But we do live in an age of other additional possibilities for sharing that vision - the unique way a large high resolution screen presents the image back-lit, like a transparency on a light table, or the way you can instantly share the image with a selective, or wide audience via social media. There are so many possibilities today. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Winedemonium said:

I agree to a point. I think the ultimate reward for an image you take all the way through the creative process is to see it just the way you want it in print. But we do live in an age of other additional possibilities for sharing that vision - the unique way a large high resolution screen presents the image back-lit, like a transparency on a light table, or the way you can instantly share the image with a selective, or wide audience via social media. There are so many possibilities today. 

First of all Winedemonium we are of course all different in our approaches to our own photography, I hope that I didn't come across as laying down a "rule" when I said that about printing one's work......it is what works for me for sure and it's something that I have always appreciated and preferred when I view other photographer's works. Yes of course we do have other ways of presenting images these days, but most of them now are tied to viewing on a screen and when did you last see an exhibition of work presented on a collection of screens rather than prints? Having said that I am sure that such exhibitions have been mounted somewhere, but I suspect they are a rarity. Taking an image through to the printing stage means that you consider it's worth doing rather than having it pop up on command on your computer screen. I've made hundreds of prints, mostly A2's on a P800 or Epson 3800, these past few years and for me going through that tactile "collection" is way more satisfying than scrolling through a Lightroom or whatever other on-screen catalogue. 

There's also the thought process and time spent that goes into making a print that's a valuable part of the process for me, hardly any photograph that I find I like when viewed on a screen through a catalogue of new images ends up the same when I print it. Cropping, shading, toning, and a myriad of other options even mounting and framing can help to refine the image and bring out aspects that were probably not seen there on screen initially..........so all of that is for me important and helps me to think through what I was originally going for when I took the shot, and then of course being able to hold a finished print that you're happy with is very satisfying. 

Good luck with your "re-entry" thoughts and plans to the M's system!

 

[Ouroboros]

4 hours ago, Winedemonium said:

I agree to a point. I think the ultimate reward for an image you take all the way through the creative process is to see it just the way you want it in print. But we do live in an age of other additional possibilities for sharing that vision - the unique way a large high resolution screen presents the image back-lit, like a transparency on a light table, or the way you can instantly share the image with a selective, or wide audience via social media. There are so many possibilities today. 

I'll take issue with you over your statement that a transmitted image on a screen is comparable to a (correctly exposed) transparency on a lightbox.  Quite simply, there is no comparison!  If you think I'm wrong,  borrow a medium format camera with a decent lens, better still a 5x4" camera and make some images on Velvia 50, put them on a lightbox and examine them carefully with a loupe. 

A finely crafted print made on the most suitable substrate for the subject, optical or inkjet, matted and framed has a visual and tactile  quality that no transmitted image can imitate.

If you still think I'm wrong, I suggest you try to convince a gallery that their photographic artworks will sell better in digital picture frames.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Ouroboros

[LocalHero1953]

26 minutes ago, petermullett said:

First of all Winedemonium we are of course all different in our approaches to our own photography, I hope that I didn't come across as laying down a "rule" when I said that about printing one's work......it is what works for me for sure and it's something that I have always appreciated and preferred when I view other photographer's works. Yes of course we do have other ways of presenting images these days, but most of them now are tied to viewing on a screen and when did you last see an exhibition of work presented on a collection of screens rather than prints? Having said that I am sure that such exhibitions have been mounted somewhere, but I suspect they are a rarity. Taking an image through to the printing stage means that you consider it's worth doing rather than having it pop up on command on your computer screen. I've made hundreds of prints, mostly A2's on a P800 or Epson 3800, these past few years and for me going through that tactile "collection" is way more satisfying than scrolling through a Lightroom or whatever other on-screen catalogue. 

There's also the thought process and time spent that goes into making a print that's a valuable part of the process for me, hardly any photograph that I find I like when viewed on a screen through a catalogue of new images ends up the same when I print it. Cropping, shading, toning, and a myriad of other options even mounting and framing can help to refine the image and bring out aspects that were probably not seen there on screen initially..........so all of that is for me important and helps me to think through what I was originally going for when I took the shot, and then of course being able to hold a finished print that you're happy with is very satisfying. 

Good luck with your "re-entry" thoughts and plans to the M's system!

 

There are a lot of virtual exhibitions available to visit at the moment, simply because physical exhibitions cannot be visited in reality. There is also a growing range of software and webhosts available to facilitate them. Some are based on photos of physical exhibitions, some are virtual reality setups using digital images. Yes, a print has qualities that would not be visible in such exhibitions, but they potentially can be seen by a larger number number of people from further afield.   

4 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

I'll take issue with you over your statement that a transmitted image on a screen is comparable to a (correctly exposed) transparency on a lightbox.  Quite simply, there is no comparison!  If you think I'm wrong,  borrow a medium format camera with a decent lens, better still a 5x4" camera and make some images on Velvia 50.

A finely crafted print made on the most suitable substrate for the subject, optical or inkjet, matted and framed has a visual and tactile  quality that no transmitted image can imitate.

If you think I'm wrong, I suggest you try to convince a gallery that their photographic artworks will sell better in digital picture frames.

I agree that seeing a physical print is quite different from a screen image, and there is no digital way to reproduce a print's qualities. But in the end the photographic value of an image is in what it shows, not what it feels like.

Furthermore, while the visual and tactile properties of a print do, of course, enhance the experience, digital display also has benefits that a print does not, arising from the brighter illumination, and the opportunity to explore the detail.

IMO, of course!

[Winedemonium]

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@petermullett @Ouroboros @LocalHero1953, I thank you for the unexpected, yet very welcome and useful discussion about how we present the photographs we make, and why it matters. The what here is led by the why, though sometimes we fall into habit and forget the why part, which makes this sort of discussion quite useful. (My father-in-law spends a lot of time mowing his lawn. I asked him why he had a lawn and he looked at me quite baffled. 😁).

From our discussion I can draw that the print offers (at least) three benefits - firstly, it conveys qualities the photograph possesses that cannot be seen any other way; secondly, the process of printing, and learning to improve in printing, feeds back creatively to the photo making process itself, and if one sees the print as the ultimate expression of the image, that feedback is vital to making good photographs in the first place; and third, though other forms of sharing photographs are now prevalent (social media, but now also virtual gallery type efforts), many would agree that the highest form of sharing photographs, is in an exhibition of mounted and framed photographs that you walk through. Few will achieve that (or have the goal to), but even so, following the steps that might lead to that may aid our progress as photographers.

This weekend just past I have indulged myself in reading a few essays, some of them on Sean Reid's website, on why the equipment we choose to use has an impact on the images we make. In addition to my considerations right now on what M gear to (re-)buy, and I have also just purchased the Hasselblad 907X with 4/45P lens. Why? Because it is (relatively) light as a package, but more importantly, because I intend to shoot it waist-level and chest-level, and that will lead to photographs with a perspective I am unlikely to find myself shooting with an M. (Likewise the M system offers its own unique way of viewing the subject, and has its own influence therefore on the result). 

Back to printing for a moment, I would welcome any links to videos, or text that provide tips on improving one's printing. As I said before, I have the Epson P808 (P800). I'm processing in LR. At the moment I'm printing only in A4, because - as I wrote earlier - it seems a prudent approach to print multiple versions and get feedback from viewing the print. But I will go larger. At the moment I have a selection of boxes of A4 papers from Hahnemühle - photo rag (308gsm cotton white), photo rag ultra smooth (305gsm, cotton white), museum etching (350gsm cotton natural white), glossy fineart baryta (325gsm cellulose bright white high gloss). Other suggestions welcome.

Thank you.

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Winedemonium
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[Guest]

11 hours ago, Winedemonium said:

 

Back to printing for a moment, I would welcome any links to videos, or text that provide tips on improving one's printing. As I said before, I have the Epson P808 (P800). I'm processing in LR. At the moment I'm printing only in A4, because - as I wrote earlier - it seems a prudent approach to print multiple versions and get feedback from viewing the print. But I will go larger. At the moment I have a selection of boxes of A4 papers from Hahnemühle - photo rag (308gsm cotton white), photo rag ultra smooth (305gsm, cotton white), museum etching (350gsm cotton natural white), glossy fineart baryta (325gsm cellulose bright white high gloss). Other suggestions welcome.

Thank you.

 

Hello again, as we've wandered a bit from the original posting of yours that was about cameras maybe we will have to move this thread to a printing forum, but I'll leave that up to the moderators. So I would definitely encourage you to print larger than A4 because that's when you'll begin to appreciate not only your work to a greater degree but you'll be able to better judge the capabilities of whatever camera you choose to go with, ( and by the way 24 megapixels are more than fine for printing to that size or larger ).  I always print to A2 size, and would love to print larger with some images but that's hampered primarily by not being able to afford the move up to say a 24" Epson Pro' printer with everything else that entails by way of work-space, paper and inks and so on.......BUT your P808, ( same as my P800 ), is a very able printer indeed and I make both colour and B&W prints with it that are certainly way good enough for my needs. If I was going to exhibit work I'd probably have someone else make those finals especially if they were B&W and could be printed using John Cole's InkJet Mall Piezography inksets which are the premium choice for monochromatic prints. I keep meaning to convert my aging Epson 3800 to Piezography B&W ink-set but haven't yet bitten that costly bullet. 

Paper supplies? I'd concentrate on one type or grade at first if only to get used to the process before you feel you want to branch out to other choices. Personally I always use Matte paper-stock and here Epson's own Enhanced Matte 192 gsm is an excellent choice, it's not expensive, widely available and a good all round paper that works well on the Epson printers as all the profiles are there in their printers to use too. I rarely if ever print to Glossy stock, but that's just a personal choice. You live in Hong Kong I believe so I am sure that Epson stock is quite available there.......However in recent years I have been using a UK company called Marrutt for their paper stocks and their replacement inks and I have been very impressed with their products, especially the replacement ink products because using them reduces the costs of inks considerably and I have yet to find any problem with their use, to the contrary in fact. Marrutt are online and I believe that they sell / ship world-wide, there's certainly no problem for me living in France anyway.....It's a great company and I recommend them not only for their product lines but also for their customer support which is personal and excellent.

Hope this helps........Good luck with it all.

[Winedemonium]

Thanks so much Peter. This is great information - really very helpful indeed!

Note to moderators - I will open a separate topic in the printing forum on my adventures with that, if you don't mind, and now bring this thread back to the gear choices at hand...

 

So, as a sidebar to the M choices, I have bought and will shortly receive the Hasselblad 907X + 4/45P lens. I will report on that in the digital forum in due course. But, much like my considerations for a return to the M system, this was more about ideas for how I might use this camera, and not just its IQ.

 

Will update on the M system shortly....

[Winedemonium]

So, by way of update on the M...

I decided that what I probably really wanted was the M10R, but I didn't buy one. Prudence kicked in I think, and I wanted to be sure that a return to the M, for at least part of my photographic needs desires, I should buy something second hand, use it for at least a few weeks, if not longer, and then decide if this is a system to flesh out once again.

So, I bought locally in a private sale, a silver M10-P and silver 1.4/35 FLE. I also bought from a local dealer a 2/85 Zeiss Sonnar ZM, a lens I once owned, and in seeing on the shelf, could not resist. (It brings up the 90 framelines in the M10-P, and I was delighted to discovery the focus/zoom point selection capability of the M10-P's rear screen, which will be useful with this longer fast lens).

So, that will be my initial set up. The obvious gap for me is a 50, but a 35/85 combo will push me to use the 85 more than I might otherwise. 

Thanks to everyone here for your help and advice. I've enjoyed the discussion and it's nice to be back.

(Update - my post on printing advice sought is here.)

Edited January 13, 2021 by Winedemonium
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[newtoleica]

Winedemonium, thank you for this interesting post which had me reflecting similarly.

I shot Leica from about 2009 to 2016. M9 initially (moving from a Nikon D3), then an MM and an M240. The 35 non FLE Lux was always there and I owned and sold a number of other lenses. In 2016 three things happened, I bought a new flat and needed cash for a refurbishment, I bought a used Sony RX1R and I decided to pick up my film cameras, Olympus OM system, again and home develop. So I sold my Leica gear. Past three years I've been mainly shooting film (TriX, but also C41 and E6) and I now have my own darkroom. For a while in first lockdown I didn't have any access to a darkroom so I was forced to shoot digital for an extensive project I was doing. Having sold the RX1R a year or so before, bought (unseen) an A7Riv and a couple of lenses. Whilst appreciating the use of an AF digital occasionally, I hated the A&Riv, too big, huge grip, like a DSLR. Got thinking and swapped it for a used Q2.......

I'm afraid holding the Q2 was like an alcoholic sinking their first bottle after being on the wagon for a while. I also realised some of my little used Olympus OM lenses had just gone through the roof in value (£3,000+) as they have become the go-to for videographers. So I sold them and a couple of spare unused bodies and now have an interesting mix kit:

-Q2 for one lens, casual and family stuff.

-M10P and M7 (late version) for Leica Digital/Film with 24 Elmarit ASPH, 35 Summilux ASPH nonFLE (finding a 6-bit one of those was hard), 50 Summilux ASPH, 75 Cron APO. I can still shoot the 24 estimating the 'excess' beyond the finder on the M.

-Slimmed down OM kit: A pair of OM4Ti, OM3Ti, OM2, OM 135/2.8, 85/2, 35/2, 24/2, 21/3.5.

So I think that's a good mix of gear. I can use the Q2 alone, or pair it with the M10P + 50 or 75. Or I can take the M10P and the M7 with the 4 Leica lenses. Or I can shoot the OM SLRs if I want longer or wider, or to use the multi spot OM metering system if lighting is weird (great after dark). Or the OM2 if I don't want to be carrying expensive gear...

Just need to get out of this third, and tightest lockdown in London and shoot!!!!

Edited January 16, 2021 by newtoleica
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