Changes in lens production to be announced

[rosuna]

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I was told changes in lens production at Leica will be announced soon.

Many lenses will be produced only under previous order. The Elmarit 50mm disappear. Etc.

Anyone knows more details?

[adan]

Well, the appearance of the Summarit-M 50 f/2.5 made the disappearance of the collapsible 50 f/2.8 Elmar (no "it") fairly likely.

 

Depends on what one means by "many" - wouldn't surprise me to see, say: the Noctilux, WATE, 50 ASPH, 35 1.4, become made-to-order only. Basically anything that lists for over $3,000 or just has a low turnover rate.

 

Just remember that it's DEALERs who place orders, so there still could be shelf stock of the exotics at any dealer who wanted, or was big enough, to carry the load.

[ho_co]

Rubén--

Interesting news. It makes sense.

 

In his article on the introduction of the 28/2.8 aspheric, E Puts said it had some changes designed to make it producible in series; now with the Summarits, that's a stated goal of Leica.

 

Leica has always produced lenses differently from other manufacturers; G Mancuso repeated that again in his Germany tour thread. Now it looks as if Leica is moving nearer to mainstream technique.

 

To my understanding, some specialty lenses from Nikon and Canon aren't readily available off the shelf; maybe they are also produced only on special order.

 

Thanks for the update. Maybe that's the big news for this non-photokina September.

 

--HC

[adan]

Just realized my previous response was a bit M-centric. I would also expect the more exotic R lenses (180 'cron, modular 280/400/560 system, 80 1.4 (now that the M75 1.4 is defunct), and the 70-180 f/2.8 and 105-280 zooms) to go into "bespoke" production.

 

Note that Leica obviously has a lot of 180 f/2's sitting around, or it wouldn't be bundling them with Digilux 3s to clear out inventory.

 

When it comes to grinding glass, batch production is still economical. But why put labor into machining metal and assembling lenses just to sit in a warehouse - when that same labor could be put to use producing the itmes that sell much faster? I expect Leica will start warehousing only the glass elements (much more compact) and then build finished lenses as ordered, for the low-sales designs.

 

Which means the exotic stuff will likely become even more rare and expensive (as has already happened with the Noctilux).

 

The move from Solms back to Wetzlar likely plays into the timing for this - first, because setting up a new shop floor is an ideal time to revise work flow and buy new machinery and dump old stuff before moving it, and second because cutting way back on the weight and mass of warehouse stock reduces the cost of the move.

[rosuna]

Leica is fine tuning their production system.

 

I am waiting for additional details...

[marknorton]

I wonder how many R lenses they are making at the moment...

[rosuna]

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I wonder how many lenses they are making at the moment... of any kind.

 

The 28mm Elmarit has disappeared. The APO-Summicron 75mm is very difficult to find. The same goes for the Noctilux, etc.

 

I think the plan is clever. Special lenses under explicit order, and mainstream lenses (Summarit) at a regular pace.

 

How is Leica managing the manufacture of autofocus R lenses? (If they are doing it).

[ho_co]

I agree, it's an excellent business plan. Dan hits a number of good points. I was worried when the news of the move first became public several months back, simply because of the amount of M8 tweaking going on; but that seems to have been well weathered by now. The main backlog at the moment seems to be the 30%-off lenses.

 

As for how hard it is to get some other lenses at the moment, it has always been that way. My accounts used to scream when they ordered an item and had to wait six months to a year for delivery. The only thing I could tell them was, "Leica produces in batches. If they just quit running a batch and started producing something else the week before your order went in, yours will be at the top of the next batch. If this lens is so important to you, you should have had it in stock." Major accounts understood; minor accounts thought that they could change Leica's methods by making more noise.

 

Changing that style is apparently what these production changes are about.

 

The only thing that bothers me about it is that it _could_ lead to the perception of there being both a first-rate and a second-rate lens line from Leica.

 

It _could_ indeed lead to a de facto two-tier quality standard.

 

Nikon and Canon get away with that; I'm not sure Leica can. Personal opinion only.

 

--HC

[rosuna]

Like the Elmarit lenses, I expect the Summarit to be superb performers.

[luigi bertolotti]

Ruben, yours is the real point: if Summarits will be excellent performers, and if they'll attenuate the famed backfocusing issue, I think that the Leica Co. can foresee a decent future for itself: a product line based on a prestige camera that has the advantage of being a sort of unique in the market, so can be sold at high price, with a setof lenses of "reasonable" prices : this can be their mainstream market. Then.. they are famous for lenses, and Leicaphiles are just a part of the market they have on target : for them, lenses like the 28/2, the Nocti, the WATE, can go on, with their own pricing and manufacturing/availability schema... the possible problem of a "two quality levels" perception envisioned by ho_co shall not emerge if Summarits will be really good performers (and, mechanically, I do not think they will be worst than their "prestige" brothers): simply, there shall be the perception of "normal" and "extra luminous" lenses, with different costs... after all, Leica owes part of its fame to the Elmar 5 cm 3,5... the Xenon 1,5 was lot more costly...but I think none had the perception of Elmar as a "less quality" lens... and it continued to be sold for lot of years.

[marknorton]

It will be interesting to see if there is the same trend in R lenses if/when the R10 comes out because if the existing M lenses are expensive, R lenses are even more so.

[rosuna]

Well, similar R lenses (focal, max aperture) are not as expensive as the M models. Reflex cameras are more versatile because can handle extreme focal length lenses, and here is the problem. Ultrawides, zooms and superteles are very expensive.

 

The basic problem for Leica is in several key standard fixed focal length lenses, because Summilux models need an update (35, 50, 80). Canon's offer, for instance, is superb: 24/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.2, 85/1.2, and they have cheaper models. Moreover, Leica needs a "Summarit" class of R lenses and an affordable zoom, and if you add autofocus the problem becomes very complex. It is not just the problem of developing a camera.

[zapp]

I don't see the problem yet. A change in lens production does not necessarily mean that all the nice and expensive glass will disappear. Leica is running full production right now and an adjustment of the lens line would rather indicate that old designs will be replaced and that current designs are selling - the WATE is selling there is no price barrier.

The 35/80 Summiluxes for R for instance require an update, as well as the 35 Summicron. I can understand if nobody is buying into these lenses. New designs will sell like crazy especially when introduced with an R10. The Summarits make the Elmar M 50mm superfluous as well as the 2.8/90 mm. The Summilux 75 for M could do with a replacement (naturally when we are hoping for a Summilux R 80)...

At the moment change is good for Leica. Leica is making money right now if they stream line their lens lineup, it is good news.

 

Adjustment require time, I do not expect major changes before next photokina - 1 year to go. An R10 craves for Summilux news as well as a new Zoom.

[hankg]

I don't think the new 28/2.8 is a second tier lens and I don't think the new Summarits will be either. It does seem likely that Leica is focusing on more innovative manufacturing methods to decrease costs and increase quality and reliability. All things being equal a 2.5 or 2.8 lens can deliver the same performance as a 1.4 lens at a much lower price point.

 

Perhaps over time we will see the fast expensive lenses redesigned to preserve or raise the bar on performance but minimize focus shift and make them cheaper to produce. I don't think even Leica can sell it's fast lenses for $5,000 a pop. So maybe long term we will see a line of lenses with 2.8 - 2.5 lenses at around $1250 and the faster lenses about $2500 (in todays dollars). As chip resolution gets more demanding of lenses even the new top of the Canon stuff is starting to move up in price. So the Leica price premium could shrink considerably with not only no compromise of performance and quality but perhaps an increase due to smarter production methods which would be a good thing.

[thrid]

Maybe Leica is revamping their entire line up to share components, like the Summarits do.

 

Right now it seems that every lens is a one off design, which drives up costs.

A streamlining of the pipeline would make sense, considering there are new owners. All they are doing is modernizing the production line to be more efficent, yet still retain quality.

 

Years ago someone told me that Leica had a warehouse filled to the roof with lenses and other gear worth millions. A figure of $25-30 million or more was tossed about for the value of the items, not counting the yearly up keep. That's a huge no no in the business world. It costs a fortune to warehouse stock.

[budrichard]

"All things being equal a 2.5 or 2.8 lens can deliver the same performance as a 1.4 lens at a much lower price point."

 

I think that you need to rethink that statement.

 

 

For those that can't read the handwriting on the wall, Leica is transitioning from a manufacturer of professional cameras and lenses to a supplier of consumer cameras and optics, albeit at the high end.

The name recognition of the Brand is being used to make sales to consumers who want to think of themselves as using professional level equipment or just want the best.

There is nothing wrong with this as the professional market for Leica is just about zero and this is the only way the company can survive.

If you look at the binocular and spotting scopes, they are being designed with 'birders' in mind rather than sportsman. The BN design is an obvious example. There are more 'birders' than sportsman it would appear that want top quality glass. Close focusing for a hunter that compromises distance acuity is a pain.

Anyway Leica of Today is not the same Company of the Past.-Dick

[hankg]

For those that can't read the handwriting on the wall, Leica is transitioning from a manufacturer of professional cameras and lenses to a supplier of consumer cameras and optics, albeit at the high end.

 

Canon and Nikon are consumer camera companies as well, in that the overwhelming bulk of their revenue comes from consumers. Even with the pro DSLR's the majority of sales are to consumers who want to use the same equipment as the pros.

 

Leica is no different. Rangefinders are a small niche today for consumers and pros. But there is a small dedicated segment of event/wedding/editorial/documentary/corporate/photojournalist pro photographers who prefer rangefinders or keep a rangefinder for certain types of work. With the M8 they now have a digital RF. You can be sure just like Canon, Leica will be featuring work shot by pros to help sell cameras and will be very interested in the feedback they get from pro users.

 

The pro market is like having pro racers use your car or bicycle. It helps you sell product to your bread and butter market -consumers and it provides an excellent testing ground for improving your product.

 

Leica is now making a transition from a luxury lifestyle company to a maker of high end photographic tools. It hasn't been identified as a major mainstream player in the pro or consumer market in 40 years. However the RF market while small is now healthy and growing.

[luigi bertolotti]

"All things being equal a 2.5 or 2.8 lens can deliver the same performance as a 1.4 lens at a much lower price point."

 

I think that you need to rethink that statement.

 

 

For those that can't read the handwriting on the wall, Leica is transitioning from a manufacturer of professional cameras and lenses to a supplier of consumer cameras and optics, albeit at the high end.

The name recognition of the Brand is being used to make sales to consumers who want to think of themselves as using professional level equipment or just want the best.

There is nothing wrong with this as the professional market for Leica is just about zero and this is the only way the company can survive.

If you look at the binocular and spotting scopes, they are being designed with 'birders' in mind rather than sportsman. The BN design is an obvious example. There are more 'birders' than sportsman it would appear that want top quality glass. Close focusing for a hunter that compromises distance acuity is a pain.

Anyway Leica of Today is not the same Company of the Past.-Dick

 

100% correct : they cannot simply survive struggling to be "the same of the past" : we Leicaphiles (me included) like to think of our present gear like M8 & co. as products that share a certain flavor with our beloved M3/4 or even IIIa to IIIg... and in some sense IT IS so... just for styling and lens mount/RF coupling... as a product, is a different product from a different company; you have been correct in pointing out that their share of the pro market is near zero (many pros, it seems hereby, have an M8, but I think about none consider it their principal tool) : if you look at Leitz history, is easy to argue that their problems as a Company started exactly about at the time when the pro market started to go on a different "basic platform" (the SLR) : they have spent lot of years, with company restructuring, management turmoils and so, just to find their way in this market: too early to draw a conclusion, but a pair of things in my opinion can be given as sure :

 

1) Without the M8, they shall have gone sunk : using their name to mark lenses for Panasonic is neither a decent way to survive, nor a honorable one. And you cannot keep "film for the top line - digital for undertop" : a suicide.

2) M8 is definitely NOT A WRONG PRODUCT : they have taken risks, but the product is OK, repeat: and OK not in the sense that me and people like me love it, but that many non-Leicaphiles, looking at the high end digiphoto consumer market, look at it as an interesting alternative to the "Big Black Plastics".

 

And, as I already said in a previous post, the new line of lenses, with their mood of some new manufacturing style, is at all a right move to sustain a market that, maybe (and hope) they have finally found for the Company.

[Joop van Heijgen]

All the Leica's for the past, now and the future will be an interesting alternative to the "Big Black Plastics"!

 

Why is 'digital' of other camera manufacturers than Leica always 'plastic'?

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Hallo,

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[hankg]

Nowadays, advanced plastics, ceramics, carbon fiber and all kinds of materials are used in high end products. Digital equipment has a shorter life cycle then the old mechanical cameras many of which are in use 50 years after manufacture. In this respect the Leica will be no different then any Canon or Nikon. The big difference is the finder, the ergonomics and the user interface which has a lot more in common with the M's of yore then the current crop of DSLR's.