M10-D queries (particularly on live view readout)

[chasdfg]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi all,

I picked up an M10-D yesterday and I noticed something odd. When using live view remotely or using the EVF, the top of the readout seems to have a thin translucent bar over the entire readout frame/image. This bar does not appear in the photos taken by the camera, both in live view/evf and using the RF - it only appears when live view is used and that's it. Has anyone experienced this before? It's definitely not the EVF as it works fine on my M10Mono. It's not a big deal, I don't intend to use the EVF or live view much anyway, but just concerned it might be an issue.

I also have a mini rant about how the Fotos App menu settings for configuring the M10D are so brief it's infuriating. I wish there were options such as dust detection and sensor cleaning (how does one clean the sensor safely with this thing?), file naming (do I have to do this in the computer?) as well as copyright info settings all built into the Fotos App. Basically I just wish they could mirror all the M10/P/Mono settings in Fotos. Why cripple the camera this much if you're already allowing users to adjust settings via WiFi? Its a halfway implementation which would neither satisfy "purists" nor people who expect proper menu access if you're providing this function.

Anyway, pics of the translucent bar (screenshots via the Fotos App on my phone) are as below. Note the top 3-5% of the image displayed has a faint bar (I noticed it first on the EVF).

Apologies in advance for the poor quality on the screenshots. Might be better to view them in the lightbox but I understand they're not easy to see. 

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited December 13, 2020 by chasdfg

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Guest]

3 hours ago, chasdfg said:

I also have a mini rant about how the Fotos App menu settings for configuring the M10D are so brief it's infuriating. I wish there were options such as dust detection and sensor cleaning (how does one clean the sensor safely with this thing?), file naming (do I have to do this in the computer?) as well as copyright info settings all built into the Fotos App. Basically I just wish they could mirror all the M10/P/Mono settings in Fotos. Why cripple the camera this much if you're already allowing users to adjust settings via WiFi? Its a halfway implementation which would neither satisfy "purists" nor people who expect proper menu access if you're providing this function.

 

I have a M10-D myself, and I have to say that despite real irritations it is a "favourite" M of those that I presently own..............BUT at the same time I've labelled it in other posts the "Orphan" M because Leica put it out then totally ignored it as far as any meaningful or useful enhancement of it's capability. I agree that it's annoying, stupid even, that there's no sensor cleaning function...how the hell do we do that? I've disliked the fact that if you mount the Visoflex 020 the GPS is turned on automatically whether you need it or not with no way of turning it off thus being an unnecessary battery drain. Why is there no way to access the camera menu via the 020,? I hate being reliant on Foto's and carrying a 'phone to make settings adjustments, that seems contrary to the whole philosophy of the camera, it should be able to be self contained and independent and not over reliant on Foto's at all. Foto's itself I have always found for me to be finicky and next to useless anyway.

Yes I too could rant more.

There's a "Feedback" option in Foto's whereby you can let Leica know your thoughts on the camera use that for your complaints or suggestions I have a few times although I've yet to receive an answer,......Maybe more "squeaky wheels" will get their attention.

The camera is, like the Monochroms, a wonderful addition to Leica M's line of cameras, but they made it a three legged horse at best. Surely there was or still could be much more Leica could improve regarding the camera's functions and capabilities and as you say. at least give it more of the software / menu features that the rest of the M10's line enjoy. It is after all an M10 with the absence of the LCD, but I don't think that is ever going to happen and that's a pity because despite real frustrations the concept and much of the execution of the camera is so damn good. 

[LBJ2]

6 hours ago, chasdfg said:

Hi all,

I picked up an M10-D yesterday and I noticed something odd. When using live view remotely or using the EVF, the top of the readout seems to have a thin translucent bar over the entire readout frame/image. This bar does not appear in the photos taken by the camera, both in live view/evf and using the RF - it only appears when live view is used and that's it. Has anyone experienced this before? It's definitely not the EVF as it works fine on my M10Mono. It's not a big deal, I don't intend to use the EVF or live view much anyway, but just concerned it might be an issue.

I also have a mini rant about how the Fotos App menu settings for configuring the M10D are so brief it's infuriating. I wish there were options such as dust detection and sensor cleaning (how does one clean the sensor safely with this thing?), file naming (do I have to do this in the computer?) as well as copyright info settings all built into the Fotos App. Basically I just wish they could mirror all the M10/P/Mono settings in Fotos. Why cripple the camera this much if you're already allowing users to adjust settings via WiFi? Its a halfway implementation which would neither satisfy "purists" nor people who expect proper menu access if you're providing this function.

Anyway, pics of the translucent bar (screenshots via the Fotos App on my phone) are as below. Note the top 3-5% of the image displayed has a faint bar (I noticed it first on the EVF).

Apologies in advance for the poor quality on the screenshots. Might be better to view them in the lightbox but I understand they're not easy to see. 

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by LBJ2

[gotium]

19 hours ago, petermullett said:

I've disliked the fact that if you mount the Visoflex 020 the GPS is turned on automatically whether you need it or not with no way of turning it off thus being an unnecessary battery drain.

Never understood why they did this. Why can’t you leave the EVF in place and turn it on when you need it and off when you don’t? I asked Leica about this and they said it was an interesting comment. 

[chasdfg]

I have checked with another M10-D user and his M10-D also shows the translucent bar on the top of the image when in live view/EVF. I think it's just a software glitch of sorts which is just normal, maybe in porting some algorithms from the M10 series to the M10D? Doesn't really matter since I've discovered I'm not the only one experiencing it.

On to the rant: This to me is a nearly-there camera, crippled by firmware and app menus. It's perplexing because for the most part Leica design and menus are rather well thought out. Physically, everything is as it should be though I would prefer the on/off to be on the shutter button as per all the other digital Ms. But i guess something has got to give now that there's the thumb rest. It is the most beautiful digital M IMO, feels really good in hand with no LCD protrusion, has the iso dial, and the "newer" slim body.

But Fotos wise, it would have been so much easier for all M10D users to just have all the M10 menus options in the app. Everything would be self explanatory and familiar to those who have used an M/M10 before. How hard is it to just bring over the same functions? And yes, that EVF issue. One could chew through 2 or 3 batteries in a day with the EVF and GPS on all the time (i'm being generous...it could well be 2 or 3 in an afternoon alone). Why not configure the function button + dial to turn the EVF on/off and also another option to turn the GPS on/off? It would have been downright amazing if we could have a quick menu set up in Fotos (same old favourites sort of menu in all other Leica cameras except a much shortened list), which can be accessed without Fotos after set up by pressing the function button and together with the LV magnification and dials (or some other combination) and which let us scroll through different settings (e.g. EVF on/off, GPS on/off, peaking on/off...off the top of my head all rather EVF-centric options but still useful). My wish is that the camera works well, albeit in a clunkier way, without the Fotos App and like any other digital M with Fotos, albeit via a phone.

Ok, even if we skip the EVF-centric changes and kept the function button primarily to indicate storage capacity remaining and battery life remaining in general shooting. That's fine. But give me full M10 menus in the app! It is almost there. Maybe there are too few M10-D users to warrant the time and expense to cater to us and make those final tweaks.

I popped down to my local Leica service centre today and they showed me how to open the shutter for cleaning (and made a comment about how I didn't read the manuals, when I was going on and on about how there's no "sensor cleaning" option in Fotos, which would be far clearer for general users). They kept the shutter open by switching it to WIFI mode, pressing the shutter (and the function button?), which then opened the shutter. They then told me if I wanted I could also remove the battery, and then proceeded to do so..and the shutter remained open. I haven't tried this method myself as I left the camera with them for a general clean due to some dust on the sensor I couldn't get off with a blower using bulb mode (I couldn't keep the shutter open properly to do anything else, and didn't read the manual yesterday) and some lint behind the rangefinder patch which is distracting. I haven't explored the manual enough yet. In truth I never did bother with the manual on my other Leica cameras as everything is usually quite intuitive. It seems sensor cleaning instructions are on page 68 of the English manual. However after checking out the sensor cleaning directions in the M10-D manual, their method appears different. Will ask them for another demo when I pick the camera back up to note the steps, though I'm not sure how ideal it is to remove the battery when the cameras is turned on...

[mike3996]

The user manual cites the Leica-recommended way, probably most safest.

1. Don't be in live view mode in the app, take the Visoflex off,
2. Press and hold the function button,
3. Press shutter release fully.

Now the shutter should open. The shutter won't slam shut even if battery is low. This is what makes this approach a bit safer than others.

[Guest]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, mike3996 said:

The user manual cites the Leica-recommended way, probably most safest.

1. Don't be in live view mode in the app, take the Visoflex off,
2. Press and hold the function button,
3. Press shutter release fully.

Now the shutter should open. The shutter won't slam shut even if battery is low. This is what makes this approach a bit safer than others.

Thanks mike3996.........Guilty for not reading the manual properly, oh wait....there was no manual on delivery and I was too bothered to ask for one. Anyway my fault for not looking closer into that.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, chasdfg said:

I have checked with another M10-D user and his M10-D also shows the translucent bar on the top of the image when in live view/EVF. I think it's just a software glitch of sorts which is just normal, maybe in porting some algorithms from the M10 series to the M10D? Doesn't really matter since I've discovered I'm not the only one experiencing it.

On to the rant: This to me is a nearly-there camera, crippled by firmware and app menus. It's perplexing because for the most part Leica design and menus are rather well thought out. Physically, everything is as it should be though I would prefer the on/off to be on the shutter button as per all the other digital Ms. But i guess something has got to give now that there's the thumb rest. It is the most beautiful digital M IMO, feels really good in hand with no LCD protrusion, has the iso dial, and the "newer" slim body.

But Fotos wise, it would have been so much easier for all M10D users to just have all the M10 menus options in the app. Everything would be self explanatory and familiar to those who have used an M/M10 before. How hard is it to just bring over the same functions? And yes, that EVF issue. One could chew through 2 or 3 batteries in a day with the EVF and GPS on all the time (i'm being generous...it could well be 2 or 3 in an afternoon alone). Why not configure the function button + dial to turn the EVF on/off and also another option to turn the GPS on/off? It would have been downright amazing if we could have a quick menu set up in Fotos (same old favourites sort of menu in all other Leica cameras except a much shortened list), which can be accessed without Fotos after set up by pressing the function button and together with the LV magnification and dials (or some other combination) and which let us scroll through different settings (e.g. EVF on/off, GPS on/off, peaking on/off...off the top of my head all rather EVF-centric options but still useful). My wish is that the camera works well, albeit in a clunkier way, without the Fotos App and like any other digital M with Fotos, albeit via a phone.

Ok, even if we skip the EVF-centric changes and kept the function button primarily to indicate storage capacity remaining and battery life remaining in general shooting. That's fine. But give me full M10 menus in the app! It is almost there. Maybe there are too few M10-D users to warrant the time and expense to cater to us and make those final tweaks.

I popped down to my local Leica service centre today and they showed me how to open the shutter for cleaning (and made a comment about how I didn't read the manuals, when I was going on and on about how there's no "sensor cleaning" option in Fotos, which would be far clearer for general users). They kept the shutter open by switching it to WIFI mode, pressing the shutter (and the function button?), which then opened the shutter. They then told me if I wanted I could also remove the battery, and then proceeded to do so..and the shutter remained open. I haven't tried this method myself as I left the camera with them for a general clean due to some dust on the sensor I couldn't get off with a blower using bulb mode (I couldn't keep the shutter open properly to do anything else, and didn't read the manual yesterday) and some lint behind the rangefinder patch which is distracting. I haven't explored the manual enough yet. In truth I never did bother with the manual on my other Leica cameras as everything is usually quite intuitive. It seems sensor cleaning instructions are on page 68 of the English manual. However after checking out the sensor cleaning directions in the M10-D manual, their method appears different. Will ask them for another demo when I pick the camera back up to note the steps, though I'm not sure how ideal it is to remove the battery when the cameras is turned on...

chasdfg thanks for an excellent posting on this subject. As well as many of your points made here I agree about the fact that the on/off switch should have been around the shutter release as per the other M's, if only for muscle memory sake. I disliked the rear on/off/wifi switch from the get-go. I am sure that it wouldn't have been impossible to have the switch in the "normal" position and I don't think that the faux winding handle, ( of which I am a big fan! ), would have negated that being done because it's that way with my M7 anyway, so it's been done before........BUT thanks to another forum member's suggestion last year I bypassed that annoyance by simply keeping the camera switched on most of the time I take it out, the extra battery drain is surprisingly minimal. I've even left the camera turned on for days without using it and only lost about 10% of battery capacity. I don't use my Visoflex, and I don't use or need GPS because mainly I can remember where I was when I look at a photo' so for me there's little point in that, but I understand how it might be useful for others....despite the fact that on the few occasions I have tested it out it took ages to lock onto satellites, then needing another long wait for reconnection if the camera went to sleep between shots. Quicker to ask a passing stranger where you are and make a note of it.

I don't know if Leica does actually monitor posts on these forums, I assume though that they do, but I wish that they were more responsive to feedback, responsive and inclined to act on any of our complaints and/or suggestions or at least give reasons why they went certain directions in design and implementation....perhaps that's asking too much?

[Matlock]

We are all different (thank goodness) but I find the rear on/off/wifi switch perfectly acceptable in spite of using a M10 and M10R alongside the M10D. As far as the Visoflex is concerned, I only use mine on rare occasions. After all the M10D is a rangefinder camera and is best suited to lenses within the rangefinder range provided. If you regularly use lenses outside that range perhaps the M10D was not the best choice. 

[poli]

Although I kinda agree with some of the critique on the lay out of some buttons, or the foto app quirks of the m10-d. In general it is my favorite digital m camera so far. I'd say, don't focus too much on those (little) shortcomings. Better enjoy the camera for what it is. A screen less digital! It is liberating and for me the best of both worlds. Comes close to the process of taking pictures with a film M, but the convenience of having digital pictures (to edit and enjoy). 

Also agree with Matlock, if all the app quirks are too much of a bother, I tend to think an M10 with a screen should have been the better choice. 

[mike3996]

2 hours ago, petermullett said:

Thanks mike3996.........Guilty for not reading the manual properly, oh wait....there was no manual on delivery and I was too bothered to ask for one. Anyway my fault for not looking closer into that.

When I downloaded the M10D user manual for skimming, I noticed a message that Leica will send you a physical manual free of charge if you request one.

[chasdfg]

Don't get me wrong, the M10D is a marvellous camera. It does what it should -  give me the proper experience of a screenless M (no cases with LCD covers or just turning off auto-review, the "proper" experience) and getting me close to the experience of shooting film without the developing process and time (which I admit is also part of the process of film). 

I only raised these issues and went into a rant because these are so glaring when one sets up the camera and in my initial period of use.

I didn't realise it before, but as @petermullett mentioned, the M7 has the switch where the film advance lever is at. Leica has a reference point from the cameras they made before, which almost makes it worse.  It is just unusual to have to turn to the back of the M to turn the camera on but this is not a major complaint because I used to shoot the SL and it has the on/off switch on the other end of the camera. It's something i'd get used to and either way will probably leave the camera turned on with auto power off at 2mins to leave it on standby most of the time, as this appears to work for a couple of M10D users. I suppose this on/off switch at the lever may be addressed in an M11D, though this is probably at least 2 years away and am not going to cry about the switch placement. This isn't a deal breaker by any stretch.

On the Fotos app, it's striking on set up because I normally wish to set the camera up properly when I first get it. Can't rename files, can't set copyright info (though I can in Lightroom). And I do like the dust detection system and sensor cleaning option found in the M240/M10 menus (there are workarounds, so no major issues here too). I know workarounds are commonplace in the Leica world. When a camera freezes, we pull the batt out. However, it would have been nice to seamlessly transition between cameras if one is already setting the camera up via Fotos. If not, it'd rather the MD-262 approach, which is not to give us this option at all. That's fine.

On a somewhat related note regarding the EVF, I don't generally use the EVF as my main lenses are M lenses between 28mm to 50mm. It's not meant to work perpetually with an EVF and I agree an M10 with EVF or the SL might be a better option if one has to do a lot of work with an EVF. This said, I did use it with an R lens over the weekend and aside adapting glass and shooting wideangles, I also think it might be quite useful to check focus easily as I know I have no rear LCD to fall back on (this being the case when I do shoots or more critical situations). Offering the EVF capability but not having a LV button to switch it on and off or to turn off GPS is something I didn't think Leica would overlook. These might also have been non-issues if a full M10 menu was provided for the camera, at least for the GPS anyway. Annoyingly, the workarounds for these would be to not use the camera with the EVF (this is my only colour camera and I don't wish to purchase another camera just to do critical shoots, which are few and far between anyway), to turn the camera off in-between shots (the 2 minute auto-power off would still drain the battery significantly with the EVF and GPS perpetually turned on), to buy a truckload of batteries...All not very feasible or unnecessarily impractical. My point is, you don't offer EVF capability and implement it so poorly.

I don't like an all or nothing approach but I think it might have worked better for this camera. You either give us the capability properly implemented or you don't at all. The points I raised above all are due to Leica giving me a taste of what the camera can do and then leaving much to be desired (at least initially anyway). What happened to the production and software design team? I am certain all these points were raised to them before by testers but never worked on. It's probably excuses, like the M10D's Fotos menu is the same as the M10's in Fotos so it's standard etc. It's like seeing someone standing 1 metre from the finish line of a race and just standing there.

Okay, that's the last of my rant. I do love this camera, I really do. It's got me more excited to shoot than my M10M ever did and I do enjoy staring at a good-looking camera. I will sell my only R lens and I don't have any lenses wider than 28mm. So the EVF will go too, as will my frustrations about EVF use...swept under the carpet. Will sweep my Fotos frustrations under that carpet too.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by chasdfg

[poli]

Good to read that the M10-D excites you more than the M10M. I was toying with the idea to get a monochrome, but I am in doubt. 

Last month I did buy the EVF for occasional tripod shooting, or taking very low shots. I like it, esp the tilting functionality. But I will definitely not use it on a daily basis and still prefer the rangefinder. The GPS connection btw is a joke and fails 9 out of 10 times. I also purchased a used 24mm (Elmar), which is still doable with the optical rangefinder. So if you every want to try to go wider than 28, don't let that stop you. 

[lb1800]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:56 AM, petermullett said:

It is after all an M10 with the absence of the LCD

I prefer to think of it as an M7 with a digital back ....and let the shortcomings of Fotos waft over me...

 

[Murdog]

On 12/16/2020 at 10:44 PM, lb1800 said:

I prefer to think of it as an M7 with a digital back ....and let the shortcomings of Fotos waft over me...

 

I'm is the process of buying an M10-D, my first digital, to go along side my M7. That's exactly what I wanted to hear. I'm not concerned about the bells and whistles. Just want ISO, shutter speed and aperture, with a mordern sensor.

 

[pedaes]

15 minutes ago, Murdog said:

 I'm not concerned about the bells and whistles. Just want ISO, shutter speed and aperture, with a modern sensor.

 

Just like a M10 then.

[Murdog]

11 hours ago, pedaes said:

Just like a M10 then.

Well, my M7 doesn't have a screen either.