SL2 criticism - any workarounds?

[AKorenc]

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Hi,

in the past week I was testing out the SL2 and although I decided to add it to my Nikon (D850 + Z 7) system, a few things left me scrathing my head ...
I tested the camera with the APO Summicron_SL 50/2, Sigma's 35/1.2 and 135/1.8 in L-mount, and also some NIKKOR lenses via the Novoflex SL-NIK adapter; the 28/1.4E and 105/1.4E were focusing great in AF-S mode, 70-200/2.8E FL not so great, but still usable, while the 180-400/4 didn't work at all.

Some cons I've "discovered":

- setting the ISO value can only be done in FULL stops ...?
- the amount of EV compensation is NOT shown on the top OLED screen, only +/- ...?
- while viewing through the EVF; immediately after taking the shot, the image in the EVF defocuses just slightly, which is clearly a glitch?

- if there are orange colored objects within the frame, AWB goes all off and gives a shot with strong magenta cast ...?

Are these all familiar, or did I overlook something in the menus? As the camera was a demo (courtesy of Leica Academie, Vienna), I didn't have the chance to read the manual thoroughly.

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[caissa]

You can find the manual online on the Leica site.

But the things you mentioned ....  I would never call them "cons". I probably never even noticed them, because they had no influence on my pics, so for me they are not familiar. I don't know how to say it, but I concentrate on other things than these when I use a camera....

If anything is really wrong and you want it fixed, you need to contact Leica (either as a complaint or as a change request.)

If you think it was preconfigured, you can reset it any time to factory settings.

Edited December 6, 2020 by caissa

[AKorenc]

19 minutes ago, caissa said:

... the things you mentioned ....  I would never call them "cons".

Of course setting the ISO only in full stops is a con, a negative aspect. Image quality falls with raising the ISO value, so why not giving the users an option to set ISO in 1/2 or/and 1/3 stops. You can set shooting time & aperture in 1/3 stops, why not ISO, the third parameter? As it is now, I can only go to 6400 from 3200, why not giving us an option of ISO 4000 and 5000 in between (like ANY other interchangable camera on the market).
Also seeing the amount of EV compensation just by glancing at the top OLED screen is surely usefull, instead of raising the camera and looking through EVF to check it.

I agree on the 3rd and 4th point - not a con. These two are downright flaws.

Is there a well-known "place" you guys let Leica know your feedback, or is it just a matter of e-mailing them at info@leica-camera.com?

[caissa]

I do not agree, I see no flaws and like the way the camera is set up. The Lumix cameras work in the way you want ...

[Jeff S]

EV can be set in fractions, as another exposure control, and the amount can be shown through the EVF when shooting.

Jeff

Edited December 6, 2020 by Jeff S

[caissa]

I checked in my camera, and I can set e.g. iso 4000.     But normally I do not care and use auto iso. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by caissa

[Jeff S]

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24 minutes ago, caissa said:

I checked in my camera, and I can set e.g. iso 4000.     But normally I do not care and use auto iso. 

My manual says ISO can be set in 11 fixed increments between 50 and 50,000 (progressing from 3200 to 6400).  I didn’t bother to explore further, as it’s not important to me. But I am curious how you got there, unless a FW update changed the possibilities indicated in the original manual, or I just missed something.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, caissa said:

I checked in my camera, and I can set e.g. iso 4000.     But normally I do not care and use auto iso. 

Again, unless there’s been a change, David Farkas geared his ISO comparison around the SL2’s limitation of whole ISO increments, unlike the other Leica contenders.

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/
 

Jeff

[Photoworks]

11 hours ago, AKorenc said:

Of course setting the ISO only in full stops is a con, a negative aspect. Image quality falls with raising the ISO value, so why not giving the users an option to set ISO in 1/2 or/and 1/3 stops. You can set shooting time & aperture in 1/3 stops, why not ISO, the third parameter? As it is now, I can only go to 6400 from 3200, why not giving us an option of ISO 4000 and 5000 in between (like ANY other interchangable camera on the market).
Also seeing the amount of EV compensation just by glancing at the top OLED screen is surely usefull, instead of raising the camera and looking through EVF to check it.

I agree on the 3rd and 4th point - not a con. These two are downright flaws.

Is there a well-known "place" you guys let Leica know your feedback, or is it just a matter of e-mailing them at info@leica-camera.com?

LOOK and CHANGE  the ISO setting on the back screen , you can set to any ISO steps. 640 for example

You can see exposure compensation every time you look true the finder. that is where you need it most.

There is a full manual online!

- Every camera I have used with OLED EVF will go to lowers image when AF-C in engaged . The Leica actually has still a better image. I never seen it in the AF modes

[caissa]

@ Jeff S

The increments are still full steps. The camera shows now 250. I can decrease to 125, 64 or increase to 500, 1000 etc. (The ruler shows actually the classic values 100, 200, 400, ...  but the box and the top display show the “real” value.)

How To set it up ? I need to check the manual. As said I usually do not care about it. I played around with the settings and .... 

Because it increments in full steps changes are made faster with only few clicks. I like this better and do not see any sort of “flaw”. (Does Farkas think it is a problem ?)

Edited December 7, 2020 by caissa

[tritentrue]

12 hours ago, AKorenc said:

Of course setting the ISO only in full stops is a con, a negative aspect. Image quality falls with raising the ISO value, so why not giving the users an option to set ISO in 1/2 or/and 1/3 stops. You can set shooting time & aperture in 1/3 stops, why not ISO, the third parameter? As it is now, I can only go to 6400 from 3200, why not giving us an option of ISO 4000 and 5000 in between (like ANY other interchangable camera on the market).
Also seeing the amount of EV compensation just by glancing at the top OLED screen is surely usefull, instead of raising the camera and looking through EVF to check it.

I agree on the 3rd and 4th point - not a con. These two are downright flaws.

Is there a well-known "place" you guys let Leica know your feedback, or is it just a matter of e-mailing them at info@leica-camera.com?

Bear in mind that what works best for you may be different for someone else.  For instance, I prefer changing ISO in full stops as it saves me from having to count in thirds, adding one for the "are you sure?" increment that must be clicked on some cameras before each click actually changes an increment.  And I use only the EVF for keeping track of exposure compensation.

I do recommend reading the manual thoroughly before going online and describing a camera as flawed simply because its features, in your limited experience with it, don't align with your preferences.  A worthwhile adjunct reading would be Pope's "A Little Learning." 

[Stuart Richardson]

Everyone's coming in hot! In answer to the questions in the first post.

Leica has the ISO in full steps in the ISO selection. You can change your EV to be either 1/3 or 1/2 of a stop. I imagine that they assume with the high DR of modern cameras that it is not necessary to use half stops, since the other variables of shutter speed and aperture can be adjusted more precisely. They most likely assume that there is very little variation in performance in half or third stop ISO variations, while making the interface slower to use, so they probably decided not to include them. For you that is a flaw, as others have mentioned here, it is not to them. I can see both sides. In contrast to most of the Japanese manufacturers, Leica tends to err on the side of leaving features out in favor of keeping the interface clean and simple. That could be what is going on here, same for the top menu...keeping the information a bit simpler so that it is clear and quicker to read. I agree with you though, in this case it would be nice to have the EV amount on the top menu, not just a plus or minus sign.

As for the AWB, well, it is usually possible to confuse an AWB system by having large areas of a single intense color in the frame. It sounds like that is what is happening for you. It is quite easy on the SL2 to set a manual white balance with a grey card, or to choose a lighting scenario or kelvin rating from the menus. It is hard to say that this is a system wide flaw without a larger sampling. Personally, I have not had any issues with white balance that have made me think the camera had any system wide flaws, and I have used it professionally for several months.

As for the defocusing issue you describe, I also have to say that this does not sound like something I have experienced. Can you describe that further? Do you mean that the lens goes out of focus and you have to refocus? Or do you mean that the screen gets blurrier? Does it happen with the 50mm APO summicron as well, or just the Nikon or Sigma lenses?

Finally, do you have the prefocusing on? That is a setting where the camera tries to keep the lens somewhat in focus so that it is closer to the correct setting of what you are pointing at. The first time I noticed it, it drove me nuts, so I turned it off and never thought about it again. It is a weird setting that comes out of video cameras, mostly, but if you are used to setting the focus point once and then wanting it to stay there, it will drive you mad.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Stuart Richardson

[AKorenc]

17 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Everyone's coming in hot! In answer to the questions in the first post.

Leica has the ISO in full steps in the ISO selection. You can change your EV to be either 1/3 or 1/2 of a stop. I imagine that they assume with the high DR of modern cameras that it is not necessary to use half stops, since the other variables of shutter speed and aperture can be adjusted more precisely. They most likely assume that there is very little variation in performance in half or third stop ISO variations, while making the interface slower to use, so they probably decided not to include them. For you that is a flaw, as others have mentioned here, it is not to them. I can see both sides. In contrast to most of the Japanese manufacturers, Leica tends to err on the side of leaving features out in favor of keeping the interface clean and simple. That could be what is going on here, same for the top menu...keeping the information a bit simpler so that it is clear and quicker to read. I agree with you though, in this case it would be nice to have the EV amount on the top menu, not just a plus or minus sign.

As for the AWB, well, it is usually possible to confuse an AWB system by having large areas of a single intense color in the frame. It sounds like that is what is happening for you. It is quite easy on the SL2 to set a manual white balance with a grey card, or to choose a lighting scenario or kelvin rating from the menus. It is hard to say that this is a system wide flaw without a larger sampling. Personally, I have not had any issues with white balance that have made me think the camera had any system wide flaws, and I have used it professionally for several months.

As for the defocusing issue you describe, I also have to say that this does not sound like something I have experienced. Can you describe that further? Do you mean that the lens goes out of focus and you have to refocus? Or do you mean that the screen gets blurrier? Does it happen with the 50mm APO summicron as well, or just the Nikon or Sigma lenses?

Finally, do you have the prefocusing on? That is a setting where the camera tries to keep the lens somewhat in focus so that it is closer to the correct setting of what you are pointing at. The first time I noticed it, it drove me nuts, so I turned it off and never thought about it again. It is a weird setting that comes out of video cameras, mostly, but if you are used to setting the focus point once and then wanting it to stay there, it will drive you mad.

Thanks for your reply, Stuart. Yes, kinda hot 

About the ISO; I'd very much like to set it in 1/2 or 1/3 stops, and was just asking if there are some workarounds, if that's possible. Looks like it ain't. OK, no big deal, "problem" solved. I've been using the Q for three years, and that camera also limits setting the ISO to full stops. I'm sure I'll survive

I noticed the thing with AWB when comparing Q2 and SL2 image quality.
My plan is to use these two cameras together and while doing some comparison shots with both cameras (I used the Novoflex SL-NIK adapter with the NIKKOR 28/1.4E on the SL2) I noticed the Q2 was metering AWB way more precisely, which somewhat surprised me. So, look at the bellow two samples (Q2 on the left, SL2 on the right); both shot with AWB, at ISO 200 ... the Q2 was constantly more consistent at giving accurate results with AWB, while the SL2 was all over the place ... it was pretty unsatisfactory - and I am being "diplomatic" here. As AWB works great on the Q2, and (in this case) not even good on the SL2, I called it a flaw.

On to the defocusing ... yes, the lens itself defocuses just slightly. When in AF-S mode, I look through the EVF and half-press the shutter, at which point the lens focuses and the image sharpens. Then I fully press the shutter, the latter closes and the EVF goes black, and when the image reapears in the EVF, the image returns with a slightly forward-moved focus position. It's not the EVF itself, the image in the EVF stays sharp, the plane of focus is moved. That happened with the Summicron-SL 50/2, Sigma 35/1.2 and NIKKOR 28/1.4E via Novoflex adapter.

Like I mentioned before, this was a demo camera, and I am not sure if prefocusing was on or off, haven't checked ... I've ordered the SL2 and when I receive my own camera, I'll see if these thing still show up ...

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Edited December 8, 2020 by jaapv
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[Stuart Richardson]

Thanks for the explanation and samples. I would say that the WB does not look perfect in either camera, but it does look better with the Q2. I have not had this problem, and in general I have found the SL2 to be good about WB and to have very good color overall, so I hope that this anomaly is somehow related to the demo camera, or the peculiarity of your lighting situation. I am attaching a few photos with orange subject matter. I have edited them slightly to adjust the exposure etc, but I have left them as having Adobe Color and AWB (from the camera, not adobe). I would probably adjust the color a bit, but in general, I think the AWB did fine. Does this space have fluorescent lighting? Sometimes that can cause a more magenta or green cast depending on the camera. Those light sources indeed have a lot more tint to them than other sources, and our eyes mostly adjust...cameras and film have a harder time.

The focus thing is odd, and is not something I have encountered. I imagine I would have, as I do artwork reproduction and slide scanning, and I would have noticed any drifting. I only have the 50mm APO Summicron, S lenses and M lenses, however, no third party lenses.

 

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[isleofgough]

I haven't had the same issues with autoWB, but I always adjust the white balance in Capture one to match what I saw. No auto white balance in any camera I've used is totally accurate. There are some issues I wish were better on the SL2: depth of preview for Leica L mount lenses, an ability to adjust zoom settings (the built in settings are not magnified enough for precise focusing of f1.4 lenses), less noise in ASA 800 and above, better eye detection in AF - particularly for animals, fixing the default overexposure (and blowing out of highlights: I have to shoot a full stop underexposure to prevent this), and something between low and high for focus assist (with manual lenses). I also would like better autofocus stability in video shooting. The SL2 is a great camera, but not without its faults.

Edited December 7, 2020 by isleofgough

[Photoworks]

• I noticed the thing with AWB when comparing Q2 and SL2 image quality.
• My plan is to use these two cameras together and while doing some comparison shots with both cameras (I used the Novoflex SL-NIK adapter with the NIKKOR 28/1.4E on the SL2) I noticed the Q2 was metering AWB way more precisely, which somewhat surprised me. So, look at the bellow two samples (Q2 on the left, SL2 on the right); both shot with AWB, at ISO 200 ... the Q2 was constantly more consistent at giving accurate results with AWB, while the SL2 was all over the place ... it was pretty unsatisfactory - and I am being "diplomatic" here. As AWB works great on the Q2, and (in this case) not even good on the SL2, I called it a flaw.

I use the Q2 and SL2  often together. I don't get the big changes you show in the samples.

This are out of camera JPEG? Can it be the coding of Nikon lens? If RAW, can it be that you are not using an updated Lightroom to C1P profile? I have seen the color change the M10-R in C1P since they don't have a profile for this camera currently 

I don't use the Novaflex. I am often surprised how much better the WB is on the SL2 in compare to my Sony .

 

[AKorenc]

16 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

... I hope that this anomaly is somehow related to the demo camera, or the peculiarity of your lighting situation.

The lighting was OK, only daylight on the overcast day, so I keep my fingers crossed it really is related to this sole sample camera.

[AKorenc]

10 hours ago, Photoworks said:

I use the Q2 and SL2  often together. I don't get the big changes you show in the samples.

This are out of camera JPEG? Can it be the coding of Nikon lens?

In general, AWB on my demo SL2 was fine, this happened with around 15% of shots I've taken. These were all shot in DNG and converted to JPEG without any corrections in LR. Yes, maybe it could also be related to the 3rd party lens used via an adapter, but I kinda doubt that, because the remaining large percentage of shots wer fine - more than fine, actually.

[Simone_DF]

Your problem sounds very similar to what happened to some users with the M10R. That bug was fixed via a firmware update or something like that if I'm not mistaken, see the link below:

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/07/16/the-true-successor-to-the-leica-m9-leica-m10r-review/

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, AKorenc said:

These were all shot in DNG and converted to JPEG without any corrections in LR. 

what version of camera raw do you have in Lightroom?  v. 13?

once you bring in the DNG in LR the colors become an interpretation on adobe, not Leica. You will need a cameraRaw update that supports SL2