Confusion about M4 "fundus" cameras

[millardmt]

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I only recently have become a Leica owner: I bought a black paint M4 that has been converted for use with the N.Y Motor.

The serial number would indicate late '68 or very early '69 production [1206808].

I am prompted to write because I recently perused the Westlicht / Leica auction online catalogue. (The auction ended on November 21st, 2020.)

One of the cameras described was a black paint "fundus" M4 MDa -- also claimed to be of 1969 vintage -- whose serial number is 1206838. (See images.)

My question is, would Leica have really been so capricious in those days that it apparently plucked cameras from its "production line" at seeming random (that is, to be sold to Zeiss as stripped-down, ophthalmic specialty devices)? I would have thought
that a consecutive block of cameras, by serial number, would have been so consigned.

My understanding is that a lot of cameras were sent to Zeiss, and that some were thereafter "repatriated" and refitted as "parts-bin" specials by Leica at a later time.

How did my M4 escape such a signal honor, I wonder? Or is the "nearness" of their respective serial numbers mere happenstance?

Thanks, Marc

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[pedaes]

Welcome to the Forum and the fascinating world of Leica.

Leitz/Leica serial numbers have been a minefield since the early years as far as I can tell from what I have read here and elsewhere, so the answer to the question you pose is 'Very probably!'   Enjoy your camera! It has fame by association already!

[250swb]

Serial numbers were indeed plucked at random, in a batch of cameras it is simply that, a batch, theoretically the lowest serial number could be the last one built in the batch.

Edited November 24, 2020 by 250swb

[adan]

If you go here, and scroll down to the numbers around the number 1206838, you will note that 1) Leica was indeed putting out "batches" as small as 1, or 15, or 20, or 38, and that 2) the "serial numbers" were not even always built "in serial order."

https://www.cameraquest.com/leicanum.htm

And yes, your camera was assigned as a block of 140 M4-M's to be built beginning Dec. 1, 1968 - and yes, Leitz could well have picked one (or 5 or 20) off the line to become fundus cameras a week later. The fundus cameras did not get assigned their own number batches, unlike the "Post Cameras" and some others, apparently.

Leitz really didn't put a lot of staff time into coordinating serial numbers, just so long as each camera had at most one number, and each number went onto at most one camera (although even then, questions have arisen). Great engineers, but the "housekeeping" was done at the level of two gnomes in a garage with pencils and paper.

[millardmt]

And, just to demonstrate the chaotic nature of Leitz's production records, my black M4 is neither a "MOT" nor a "Post" camera -- in contradiction to Gandy's tables.  (See image of my camera below.)

Thanks again, everyone.

Marc

 

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[250swb]

15 hours ago, adan said:

 

Leitz really didn't put a lot of staff time into coordinating serial numbers, just so long as each camera had at most one number, and each number went onto at most one camera (although even then, questions have arisen). Great engineers, but the "housekeeping" was done at the level of two gnomes in a garage with pencils and paper.

I don't know about that Andy. Consider the production line for anything hand built that needs the serial number stamped on it before final assembly. If what came out the door was in any strict order a camera that took longer to build than another would hold the entire line up. And we know that Leica cameras go back and forth in testing. That is why random numbers built as part of a batch make sense.

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by 250swb

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Just to take this from another angle, you have cameras that were used on Zeiss Fundus Cameras in the mid/late 60s for taking photos of retinas of eyes. When Zeiss bought these is a question because they built the fundus cameras in batches. It is interesting if they have the Zeiss dovetail mounts still on the camera. In the 70s they changed to Pentax camera with motor drives. I preferred Canon or Nikons as they were more durable.