M lenses on Lumix S5

[Stuart Richardson]

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Another option is Leica R. I guess the more desirable lenses are quite expensive now, but if you want Leica character in a lens that is better suited to mirrorless, the R lenses fit the bill.

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[Chaemono]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Archiver:

If I let go of the idea of using M lenses with a L mount camera, apart from the SL, that helps me choose the S5 with confidence. Expensive Summicron L's aside, native lenses should work well with the S5, and I can always adapt my Pentax and Minolta manual focus lenses for that vintage look.

Yes, but with the Summicron-SL lenses Leica has raised and tightened the contrast curve so that an f/2 lens creates the illusion of an f/1.4 lens. 

[Archiver]

11 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Another option is Leica R. I guess the more desirable lenses are quite expensive now, but if you want Leica character in a lens that is better suited to mirrorless, the R lenses fit the bill.

If only I started to buy Leica R lenses about ten years ago, before more people started to use them for video and mirrorless cameras. Prices have gone up and up since then.

[Chaemono]

Am 13.10.2020 um 21:21 schrieb BernardC:

I also suspect that it's a firmware issue. Unlike phase-detect systems, L-Mount cameras use a very sophisticated algorithm to determine the required direction and amount of focus, which is based on each lens' imaging characteristics. I doubt that Panasonic would have held-up the release of their entry-level camera  just because they haven't finished optimizing the software for some lenses. That will come later, the important thing is that the camera should be available on Black Friday! I'm sure they prioritized their own lenses first, and then the most popular lenses. The down-side is that some (very rare) lenses have slightly slower AF in the short term.

I just updated to FW 1.1. The camera was shipped with FW 1.0. I set Half Press Shutter to On and the S5 is super snappy now with the SL primes. No difference to the S1. Gone is that AF in-slow-motion experience 😁 which was clearly my fault.

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

I just updated to FW 1.1. The camera was shipped with FW 1.0. I set Half Press Shutter to On and the S5 is super snappy now with the SL primes. No difference to the S1. Gone is that AF in-slow-motion experience 😁 which was clearly my fault.

That’s great news. Now I just have to wait for some S5 deals 😂

[Archiver]

On 10/18/2020 at 1:48 AM, Simone_DF said:

That’s great news. Now I just have to wait for some S5 deals 😂

And some Summicron SL deals, too. 😬

[Aivar]

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On 10/17/2020 at 7:26 PM, Chaemono said:

I just updated to FW 1.1. The camera was shipped with FW 1.0. I set Half Press Shutter to On and the S5 is super snappy now with the SL primes. No difference to the S1. Gone is that AF in-slow-motion experience 😁 which was clearly my fault.

will FW improve the image quality for M lenses? 
looking for option for my freezing typ 240... 

[Chaemono]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Aivar:

will FW improve the image quality for M lenses? 
looking for option for my freezing typ 240... 

No

[Archiver]

17 hours ago, Aivar said:

will FW improve the image quality for M lenses? 
looking for option for my freezing typ 240... 

Very unlikely. Given that the problems stem from the design of the S5's sensor filter stack, a firmware update isn't going to fix them. You're better off buying a SL or M if you want something to replace your M240. I'm considering a SL or even a Nikon Z6, which purportedly does pretty well with M lenses.

[Stuart Richardson]

It is down to the cover glass. Most companies decided to change their lenses to work with digital. Leica decided to make their sensors work with film lenses. Leica worked with Kodak to design what are called offset microlenses. There are tiny lenses in the sensor glass itself that redirect the off-axis light coming out the rear of the lenses to redirect them straight at the sensor. Digital sensors do best when the light hits them directly, partially because of the sensor wells, but also because sensors need a piece of glass in front of them to protect them. If the light coming out of your lens is on an angle at the edges (which is what lenses typically want to do), it has to pass through a lot more cover glass. If your cover glass is 1.5mm thick, then passing through it at an angle means you are now passing through 3mm of glass or more, depending on what angle the light is. The more you pass through, the more the image is blurred. Most early digital cameras were SLRs or fixed lens compacts, where it was possible to either design the lens to fit the sensor or they had something in the way of the rear element that forced the lens design to send light at a more direct angle. The M system, however, had no mirror. Leica could have either said that nearly every lens they designed in the past 100 years was now compromised, or they could figure something else out. They did the latter. Unfortunately, no one else bothered to do the same, so M lenses are pretty much guaranteed only to show their best on M bodies or to a less extent, SL bodies which have a similar cover glass, though not quite as strong. M lenses still do best on M bodies, and unfortunately that is not likely to change.

You can, for example, modify the sensor glass to make it thinner which will help with the blurring, but not with vignetting. It still is unlikely to get to the level of an M body, as the sensor glass in them literally changes the path of the light such that it goes straight into the pixel wells of the sensor.

[Aivar]

On 1/11/2021 at 7:08 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

It is down to the cover glass. Most companies decided to change their lenses to work with digital. Leica decided to make their sensors work with film lenses. Leica worked with Kodak to design what are called offset microlenses. There are tiny lenses in the sensor glass itself that redirect the off-axis light coming out the rear of the lenses to redirect them straight at the sensor. Digital sensors do best when the light hits them directly, partially because of the sensor wells, but also because sensors need a piece of glass in front of them to protect them. If the light coming out of your lens is on an angle at the edges (which is what lenses typically want to do), it has to pass through a lot more cover glass. If your cover glass is 1.5mm thick, then passing through it at an angle means you are now passing through 3mm of glass or more, depending on what angle the light is. The more you pass through, the more the image is blurred. Most early digital cameras were SLRs or fixed lens compacts, where it was possible to either design the lens to fit the sensor or they had something in the way of the rear element that forced the lens design to send light at a more direct angle. The M system, however, had no mirror. Leica could have either said that nearly every lens they designed in the past 100 years was now compromised, or they could figure something else out. They did the latter. Unfortunately, no one else bothered to do the same, so M lenses are pretty much guaranteed only to show their best on M bodies or to a less extent, SL bodies which have a similar cover glass, though not quite as strong. M lenses still do best on M bodies, and unfortunately that is not likely to change.

You can, for example, modify the sensor glass to make it thinner which will help with the blurring, but not with vignetting. It still is unlikely to get to the level of an M body, as the sensor glass in them literally changes the path of the light such that it goes straight into the pixel wells of the sensor.

thank you Stuart! 

do you have any ideas about if the Leica could change my camera’s processor or something else in it to make my 240 works well? 

[Stuart Richardson]

Hi Aivar,

I am not sure what might be causing your problems, and I never owned the 240. I guess you have already updated to the most recent firmware (available on Leica's site). If you have, you might try resetting the camera. I am not sure with the 240, but most more recent Leica cameras have an option to reset the camera, and if there is so particular setting or issue, that might help solve it. If neither of those things work, it might be worth sending it in to Leica for repair, but I am not sure what kind of work they do on the 240. My guess is that if the camera processing is faulty, it might mean they either need to give you a replacement camera or a discount on an upgrade to a new one. I have a feeling they probably do not swap processors, as I think it would be tied in to the entire electrical assembly of the camera, and would likely be uneconomical to replace. Much better to ask Leica of course, as I do not know the specifics.

[Aivar]

On 1/11/2021 at 4:24 PM, Archiver said:

Very unlikely. Given that the problems stem from the design of the S5's sensor filter stack, a firmware update isn't going to fix them. You're better off buying a SL or M if you want something to replace your M240. I'm considering a SL or even a Nikon Z6, which purportedly does pretty well with M lenses.

hi Archiver! 

I used Summicron R on Nikon D700 and was impressed with result. that’s why I decided to move on M mount. 

[Malabito]

M Lenses on Pana cameras and most of other mirrorless dont really work well with the exception of some of the newer redesign lenses.... but must of them suffer from color casts, or corner smearing...yes you can use them, but dont expect the same restuls as with leica cameras.

If you want to use m lenses in digital you only have two options Leica M and Leica SL, with other systems it will depend on the lens, and must certainily older versions wont work correctly. 

My m lenses work beautiful on my m10, (also used to on the m240), they are sharp corner to corner and have no color issues. With the Pana S1 they have color cast or corner smearing, (depends on the lens) also same happened when i used to have a sony a7..

Some examples below:

Cron 28mm V1

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24mm elmar

50mm Summilux Preasph v2

Zeiss 35mm 1.4 ZM

Skopar 35mm

[Archiver]

I now have a S5 and am waiting for a M to L adapter to arrive. In the meantime, I've been testing Canon, Sigma and Minolta lenses on it, and I'm very happy so far. When the adapter comes, it will be the moment of truth for my collection of M lenses. Well, more like a couple of hours of truth, given how many I want to test!

The shutter sound isn't as bad as expected. It's more muted than the M9, and has a crunchy snick sound reminiscent of the Ricoh GXR M module. The shutter actuation feels satisfying, unlike the very wispy feeling of the Panasonic G9.

[JohnTL]

Hi,

 

Interesting post.

How about vintage Leica primes, e.g. a Summicron 50, or an old Summaron 35 3.5, on a Panasonic S5 body. Any experiences here, issues?

 

 

[jaapv]

Well, not a Leica, but a Canon 35/2.8 LTM from 1954 on the S5. Nothing wrong. I paid 50 Euro for a mint example a few years ago. @ 4.0

 

 

 

 

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[soundfanz]

On 7/3/2021 at 10:08 PM, Archiver said:

I now have a S5 and am waiting for a M to L adapter to arrive. In the meantime, I've been testing Canon, Sigma and Minolta lenses on it, and I'm very happy so far. When the adapter comes, it will be the moment of truth for my collection of M lenses. Well, more like a couple of hours of truth, given how many I want to test!

The shutter sound isn't as bad as expected. It's more muted than the M9, and has a crunchy snick sound reminiscent of the Ricoh GXR M module. The shutter actuation feels satisfying, unlike the very wispy feeling of the Panasonic G9.

How did you go? I am considering a S5 but am concerned it won't match well with my 2 Voigtlander M mount lenses.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[frame-it]

39 minutes ago, soundfanz said:

How did you go? I am considering a S5 but am concerned it won't match well with my 2 Voigtlander M mount lenses.

🤣

Edited July 26, 2023 by frame-it

[jaapv]

On 1/11/2021 at 2:08 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

It is down to the cover glass. Most companies decided to change their lenses to work with digital. Leica decided to make their sensors work with film lenses. Leica worked with Kodak to design what are called offset microlenses. There are tiny lenses in the sensor glass itself that redirect the off-axis light coming out the rear of the lenses to redirect them straight at the sensor. Digital sensors do best when the light hits them directly, partially because of the sensor wells, but also because sensors need a piece of glass in front of them to protect them. If the light coming out of your lens is on an angle at the edges (which is what lenses typically want to do), it has to pass through a lot more cover glass. If your cover glass is 1.5mm thick, then passing through it at an angle means you are now passing through 3mm of glass or more, depending on what angle the light is. The more you pass through, the more the image is blurred. Most early digital cameras were SLRs or fixed lens compacts, where it was possible to either design the lens to fit the sensor or they had something in the way of the rear element that forced the lens design to send light at a more direct angle. The M system, however, had no mirror. Leica could have either said that nearly every lens they designed in the past 100 years was now compromised, or they could figure something else out. They did the latter. Unfortunately, no one else bothered to do the same, so M lenses are pretty much guaranteed only to show their best on M bodies or to a less extent, SL bodies which have a similar cover glass, though not quite as strong. M lenses still do best on M bodies, and unfortunately that is not likely to change.

You can, for example, modify the sensor glass to make it thinner which will help with the blurring, but not with vignetting. It still is unlikely to get to the level of an M body, as the sensor glass in them literally changes the path of the light such that it goes straight into the pixel wells of the sensor.

The microlenses on the SL are parabolic rather than offset ( was discussed in Barnack Berek Blog at the time of the release of the SL.)   The result for M lenses is similar from both systems with a small advantage for M sensors, but only on the least telecentric lenses.