Lumix S5 (vs. S1) ISO test shots

[tom.w.bn]

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vor 42 Minuten schrieb Chaemono:

I have the Sigma 50/1.4 Art. It draws like the 55 Otus, not quite the roll-off and the bokeh of the 50 Summilux-SL if one zooms in here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-P8KGKc/i-G44rRWn. But who cares, hardly anyone can see it and it's amazing wide open for subject separation in portraits like the one of the gentleman playing the barrel organ in the first picture.

But that's it. You are very limited when it comes to its use because in high contrast situations it won't capture highlight and shadow details as cleanly as the Leica lenses can. 

Below the Sigma Art vs. the 50 Summilux-SL on the SL. The Sigma lens is even at a faster shutter speed but still can't handle the highlight detail as well as the Summilux. Same settings in LR except +.2 Exposure in the Sigma picture but you'll get the DNGs anyway.

 

I can't follow your conclusion when I look at the photos. Between both photos your angle changed so you have more reflected light from the motor block and on the pavement with the Sigma.

 

[tom.w.bn]

Thanks for your effort. Unlike you I can't see a big difference in all those photos. That is a good thing. I would be disappointed if Panasonic made so much progress in sensor development in one year. I felt cheated with my just over one year old S1 if the S5 was so much better. 

 

[Chaemono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb tom.w.bn:

I can't follow your conclusion when I look at the photos. Between both photos your angle changed so you have more reflected light from the motor block and on the pavement with the Sigma.

I'll compare it, again, vs. the 50 Summicron-SL this time, both on the S5 wide open and stopped down a bit in high contrast and low-light situations.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb tom.w.bn:

...I would be disappointed if Panasonic made so much progress in sensor development in one year...

It’s a Sony BSI sensor, the same used in most 24 MPx FF cameras today, with slight variations. The difference to the S1 is that at ISO 640 the S5 is using a more powerful amplifier which is higher gain and has additional noise cancellation circuits before the signal goes to the ADC. Same technology as in the S1H. 

[Chaemono]

Am 19.9.2020 um 07:44 schrieb Archiver:

@Chaemono Thank you for these early tests, they give some good demonstrations of what to expect in particular real world situations. And I just checked out the dimensions of the APO 50 SL, and it's a touch smaller and about 100g lighter than the Sigma 50mm f1.4 Art, and definitely shorter than the Sigma 18-35! Wasn't expecting that. Although it's about six to ten times the price of the Sigma in Australia, depending on if you buy the Sigma new or used.

Some initial thoughts after starting to compare the APO 50 SL with the Sigma 50/1.4 Art both on the S5. Just as I expected, the Leica lens captures light more effortlessly with a shutter speed of 1/250 sec. at f/2. The Sigma lens required for equal exposure 1/160 sec., also at f/2 in this one. No biggie, just something to be aware of. The other difference is that the Sigma lens draws, in Zeiss speak, like a Sonnar, meaning it creates a perceived creamy background even at f/2 - a bit more nervous than the Leica lens if one zooms in but no-one does that. The APO 50 SL is more like a Planar, excellent wide open to the point where it resolves detail even in the OOF areas more accurately. 

The Sigma 50/1.4 Art is the best value for money if all one is looking for is subject separation and no distraction from busy backgrounds, despite its optical limitations otherwise.

These are equally processed and less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/

S5 + Sigma 50/1.4 Art RAW file download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g508978616-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=PzBtDaujJ5u5WSOGk6ZaRLz-MGZvGtuinc77lsQO8K4= 

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ISO 640 f/2 @1/160 sec.

S5 + APO 50 Summicron-SL RAW file download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g418133265-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=XqkpFS4-a7FkpVfGN3VCPZZgoLHsHxeWISmFHJ7ND10=

ISO 640 f/2 @1/250 sec.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Chaemono

[Archiver]

@Chaemono- This is really surprising! I had no idea that a lens could affect highlight rolloff. Makes me rethink a lot of things with lens vs camera. Wow. The examples you posted have a noticeable difference.

Is this the EF mount Sigma 50, or the L mount version?

Edited September 20, 2020 by Archiver

[Chaemono]

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Archiver:

[...]

Is this the EF mount Sigma 50, or the L mount version?

It's the EF mount Sigma. It costs €280 to convert it.

This is a better test shot to show the strength of the APO 50 Summicron-SL at ISO 640 on the S5 in high contrast scenes. Again, the Sigma lens, at f/2, required a slower shutter speed and it din't capture the details in the bright areas well at all. Impossible for me to remove the fringing in the Sigma picture, too. APO Summicron-SL captured the light wide open effortlessly and fringing could be removed easily in post. 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/

S5 + Sigma 50/1.4 Art as shot RAW file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g24780904-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=PYaDrNoe2SfPUW__NuSo7sr_lEThFXnresu8E_E29ik=

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ISO 640 f/2 @1/640 sec.

 

S5 + APO 50 Summicron-SL as shot RAW file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g188060471-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=kljYcEkdj_vn7y5wH5cgXihHhPM0qnO3tNsQBW98mh0=

ISO 640 f/2 @1/800 sec.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

Now the processed pictures.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/

Sigma

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APO 50 Summicron-SL

[BernardC]

10 hours ago, Chaemono said:

It’s a Sony BSI sensor, the same used in most 24 MPx FF cameras today, with slight variations. The difference to the S1 is that at ISO 640 the S5 is using a more powerful amplifier which is higher gain and has additional noise cancellation circuits before the signal goes to the ADC. Same technology as in the S1H. 

Do we know for sure that it's a BSI sensor? In that case it's probably the same one used in the Sigma fp. That would explain why it's not good with M lenses as well; there's never been a BSI sensor that could resolve steep ray angles.

Sony had originally claimed that BSI would be more agreeable to steep ray angles, and people believed them, but every single BSI sensor has been soft in the corners. Not a big deal for Leica users, we have excellent alternatives. It is however a huge concern for medium format photographers. Sony has displaced other sensor suppliers, and there are almost no options left that can handle camera movements.

[Chaemono]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

Do we know for sure that it's a BSI sensor? In that case it's probably the same one used in the Sigma fp...

androidlad over at the eoshd forum seems to be big into Sony Semicon 😂 and sounds like he knows his sensor stuff, especially which cameras use Sony sensor. Further down on p.16 here: https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/28270-sony-a7r-iv-a7s-iii-a9-ii-to-feature-8k-video-as-new-60mp-and-36mp-full-frame-sensor-specs-leak/page/16/#comments

TowerJazz produces the sensor for S1R.

For S1 and fp, they use IMX410CQK-C.

vor 33 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

Do we know for sure that it's a BSI sensor? In that case it's probably the same one used in the Sigma fp. That would explain why it's not good with M lenses as well; there's never been a BSI sensor that could resolve steep ray angles.

Sony had originally claimed that BSI would be more agreeable to steep ray angles, and people believed them, but every single BSI sensor has been soft in the corners. Not a big deal for Leica users, we have excellent alternatives. It is however a huge concern for medium format photographers. Sony has displaced other sensor suppliers, and there are almost no options left that can handle camera movements.

Too bad on one hand, but Sony sensor have one issue no matter at what ISO, one cannot pull back the highlights all the way without getting this over the top HDR look. This is what I love about the SL2 sensor. At base ISO, it beats the Sony sensors by a mile for 'push-ability' and 'pull-abitliy.' The issue of pushed shadows noise arises, however, at higher ISO. That's where Sony sensors, particularly 24 MPx or below, rock. 

[Njom]

Thank you it’s very interesting. 
Did you use it with Leica m lens ? the small size of Panasonic S5 with small M lenses very interesting combo for street photography 

[Chaemono]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Njom:

Thank you it’s very interesting. 
Did you use it with Leica m lens ? the small size of Panasonic S5 with small M lenses very interesting combo for street photography 

I will but I suspect the glass on the Sony sensor is too thick. I’ll compare the APO Summicron-M vs. the APO Summicron-SL on it. I will also try it with TL lenses. It will take some time, though.

[Archiver]

@Chaemono Thank you for the comparisons with the Sigma 50mm Art. There's already reports that it has a higher T-stop than the F-stop would suggest. Good to know that the Summicron SL has a lower T-stop range, albeit at several times the price. I'll likely pick up a Sigma 50 soonish as I have a portrait project coming up.

[Chaemono]

Am 21.9.2020 um 09:56 schrieb Njom:

Thank you it’s very interesting. 
Did you use it with Leica m lens ? the small size of Panasonic S5 with small M lenses very interesting combo for street photography 

APO 50 Summicron-M shows loss of sharpness (smearing) in the sides/corners, just as expected on a Sony sensor.

[helged]

Any experience/idea of noise and banding at, say ISO1600, between S1, S5, SL2/S1R? I am thinking primarily for astrophotography. 

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb helged:

Any experience/idea of noise and banding at, say ISO1600, between S1, S5, SL2/S1R? I am thinking primarily for astrophotography. 

The answer is, I don't know because I have no experience with astrophotography. Does one need to bump up the shadows in astrophotography? If yes, then pushed shadows noise in the ISO 1600 SL2/S1R files may be prohibitive depending on the amount of lifting required. DeNoise AI couldn't be used to clean them up for obvious reasons, I guess (stars would disappear 😂). 

Just so you have an idea what the pushed shadows noise difference between the S5 and the SL2 is, here are two ISO 100 files (links to download the RAWs are included). Unarguably, these are too much ETTR since collar detail on the pink coat can't be recovered, but they serve to illustrate the point. Shadows in ISO 100 SL2 files can be bumped up quite a bit even after exposure is increased. In the SL2 picture Exposure is corrected by +1.2 in LR and Shadows are set to +56 in. Both files were first processed to taste in LR (no NR), and then NR and sharpening was applied by +2 and +35, respectively, in DeNoise AI. One couldn't increase exposure and shadows by this much in an ISO 1600 SL2 file, I think, without noise and banding appearing. Not an issue for S5 files.

Notice further down how the S5 processed picture is cooler. Both were with AWB by the camera and I couldn't match the SL2 WB, which I prefer, without making the pink in the S5 look warmer or the overall picture too green. 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/

 https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g1034686833-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=ezrnlpMnat7xUc7UvUu2EA1xNU4SevOF_3zzlYrkCwA=

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ISO 100 f/2 @1/100 sec.

SL2 + 50 Summicron-SL as shot. Too much ETTR. DNG file download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g850919455-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=UT7e5DrO3pNgiqUhg4DL00_WVVNQKOx-xUa44655la8=ISO 100 f/2 @1/125 sec.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

After processing them in LR, DeNoise AI, and also upsizing the S5 picture to 47 MPx.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/

S5

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SL2

[Chaemono]

Now the crops.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/

S5

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SL2

[SB4791]

If you have an S5 like I do you can open the RAW files in Affinity Photo.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Chaemono]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb SB4791:

If you have an S5 like I do you can open the RAW files in Affinity Photo.

I don’t have an S5, only Affinity Photo.