Summarit 5cm f1.5 (thread mount onto M adapter) issue

[MCF74]

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I've just acquired a decent copy (well the glass is good and the focus/aperture are smooth enough) of a Leica Summarit 5cm f1.5 thread mount lens – serial no 953198, so relatively early version I think. I was looking forward to using this lens but, I've just noticed, the aperture indicator arrow was pointing to 9 o'clock when mounted to my MP (via a Fotodiox adapter, which I presume is fine). The aperture indicator arrow should be pointing to 12 o'clock (and viewable from behind the camera when using), and thus the whole aperture ring mechanism and front section of the lens, seems to be in an incorrect position. The back section or element of the lens looks to be about correct (focus scale arrow close enough to 12 o'clock).

Does anyone have any knowledge of this type of thing happening to their lens? Or, any knowledge of how easy it may be to remove the front section and recorrect it? There's a couple of what look like manageable screws that look tempting enough to have a go. But I don't have a good history of doing this sort of thing!

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Edited July 2, 2020 by MCF74

[Guest JMF]

15 minutes ago, MCF74 said:

I've just acquired a decent copy (well the glass is good and the focus/aperture are smooth enough) of a Leica Summarit 5cm f1.5 thread mount lens – serial no 953198, so relatively early version I think. I was looking forward to using this lens but, I've just noticed, the aperture indicator arrow was pointing to 9 o'clock when mounted to my MP (via a Fotodiox adapter, which I presume is fine). The aperture indicator arrow should be pointing to 12 o'clock (and viewable from behind the camera when using), and thus the whole aperture ring mechanism and front section of the lens, seems to be in an incorrect position. The back section or element of the lens looks to be about correct (focus scale arrow close enough to 12 o'clock).

Does anyone have any knowledge of this type of thing happening to their lens? Or, any knowledge of how easy it may be to remove the front section and recorrect it? There's a couple of what look like manageable screws that look tempting enough to have a go. But I don't have a good history of doing this sort of thing!

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Hi,

is the infinity mark on the lens lined up with the rangefinder patch when focussing at infinity ?

Best, JM.

[MCF74]

Good question... I've just ran upstairs and focused on to a very nice spot atop of a Welsh hill, about 10km away – infinity lock position and image is correctly aligned in the rangefinder.

Edited July 2, 2020 by MCF74

[Keith (M)]

Based on the orientation of my 5cm Summicron Collapsible LTM + Leica adaptor I would say yours in normal.  I had the same concern some years ago and asked the question here and the answers were "that is how it should be"  - can't remember the reason though!

A photo of the lens on my (dusty!) M10M taken a couple of months ago when I was trying the combination out.  You can see from the position of the focus and aperture marks that the orientation is the same as yours.

 

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[MCF74]

Hi Keith. I'm not sure your's is the same. To be clear, the focus distance scale at the back of the lens, the number butt-up against the camera thread, are pretty much fine for me, on my lens and camera, as expected. The issue is the aperture arrow, which shouldn't be at the side of the lens (at 9 o'clock), the arrow should be visible from the top of the camera, for ease of use.

It's hard to tell from your image, but where is your aperture arrow? 

I've had a few thread mount lenses on adapters in the past too, and they've never lined up as such.

 

A little bit of comparison from an image found online, compared to my lens. Yes, the aperture arrow is, or can be, off to right, but, crucially, if you look at where my f16 stops (the end point of the barrel rotation so can't go any further – you can't see it!) compared to the correct position on the example photo (which my copy can't get to). All in relation to the focus scale arrow at the base of the lens.

It's all a bit wrong, I think.

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Edited July 2, 2020 by MCF74

[MCF74]

So, @Keith (M) I actually think you are right in that the arrow should be off to the side. However, my barrel is, I think, in an incorrect position by approx. 90 degrees.

[Ecar]

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It's not unusual for the bottom numbers (those nearer to the camera body) on vintage lenses to be somewhat out of alignment - generally, but not always, slightly tilted to the left when looking from behind the camera, as shown in the pictures above. Two main reasons that I'm aware of: the LTM to M adapter used and/or the fact that some lenses were designed with such a tilt so that you could easily see the numbers when an external finder was mounted on the camera body.

The bottom and front index arrows, however, should be aligned, so something is not right here. Depending on the lens construction, you may throw the lens focus out of adjustment by messing with the screws. I'd send it to a competent technician for peace of mind.

[MCF74]

Hi Ecar. Yes, I'm fine with the back scale being slightly out having experienced it with no problem on other lenses. 

I had an idea that the lens may need a CLA before receiving it, so not totally put out by sending it off. It's slightly annoying because apart from this issue, everything (glass/focus) is in really good condition. 

Thanks

[tommonego@gmail.com]

I had the same issue with a Fotodiox adapter, I stopped using it thinking that its thickness is marginally incorrect. It also could be the threads are a little off. I guess it is the photos made with the lens that count, check some at f1.5. 

[Keith (M)]

1 hour ago, MCF74 said:

So, @Keith (M) I actually think you are right in that the arrow should be off to the side. However, my barrel is, I think, in an incorrect position by approx. 90 degrees.

On reflection you are right - apologies for not looking properly at where the f-stop index mark (a tiny dot on my lens) was positioned.

[pippy]

Not that it applies here with the 90 degree counter-clockwise thing but I've read (can't remember where) that many(*) of the LTM bodies / lenses had their infinity and aperture index marks aligned something like 30 degrees clockwise (when viewed from the front) so these marks could still be read when a large / forward protruding accessory was fitted in the cold-shoe.

I've just checked some of the LTM bodies - IIIc, Leotax, a pair of Niccas (ooh, Matron!) and some Feds and Zorkis - and they are all are like this.

Philip.

(*) All?

EDIT : I see I've pretty much just repeated what Ecar wrote above. Apologies, Ecar!

Edited July 2, 2020 by pippy

[MCF74]

Hi Pippy. 

I would accept that if it wasn't for the reference images I find elsewhere with the aperture numbers rotated to a place I can't rotate mine. I've asked Newton Ellis if they can have a look since they're not far from me. Cheers!

Edited July 2, 2020 by MCF74

[pippy]

37 minutes ago, MCF74 said:

...I would accept that if it wasn't for the reference images I find elsewhere with the aperture numbers rotated to a place I can't rotate mine...

Hi MCF74.

I've had a look online and there seems to be an enormous variety of index-mark positioning including some like yours. Very strange!

Have a peek at this one - especially the 6th image in the set;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/362674437406?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=362674437406&targetid=909243431449&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9044985&poi=&campaignid=10199630368&mkgroupid=107296288492&rlsatarget=pla-909243431449&abcId=1145987&merchantid=113628959&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxuz74uSu6gIVBZiyCh0vbQaOEAQYAyABEgKs9fD_BwE

Philip.

Edited July 2, 2020 by pippy

[Ecar]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

EDIT : I see I've pretty much just repeated what Ecar wrote above. Apologies, Ecar!

No apology required at all! And thanks for reading my post.

[MCF74]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

Hi MCF74.

I've had a look online and there seems to be an enormous variety of index-mark positioning including some like yours. Very strange!

Have a peek at this one - especially the 6th image in the set;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/362674437406?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=362674437406&targetid=909243431449&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9044985&poi=&campaignid=10199630368&mkgroupid=107296288492&rlsatarget=pla-909243431449&abcId=1145987&merchantid=113628959&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxuz74uSu6gIVBZiyCh0vbQaOEAQYAyABEgKs9fD_BwE

Philip.

Hi @pippy

Thanks. But they're still different. Crucially, if you look at the lock 'latch' on mine, compared to the example you give. 

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Edited July 2, 2020 by MCF74

[UliWer]

Yes, I am sure , something is wrong with the lenses position.

Usually the scale for DOF should be set off slightly to the left (seen from the camera‘s rear) but the aperture index shuld be on top - with 1.5 at the right and 16 at the left (usually for Leica lenses,  the apertures are the other way round, but the Summarit is an exception.)

On your photo in #1 the DOF scale seems to be in the usual position. So I am sure, the adapter also has the correct position. The only reason I can think of for the wrong position of the aperture scale is that somebody disassembled  the lens but put it together again in a wrong way. This may be set right easily, though I‘d recommend to give it to professional, you have no guarantee that you succeed in doing it yourself. 

[MCF74]

Thanks, @UliWer

I share your sentiments and have already asked for a quote from Newton Ellis here in the UK. For anyone who's interested, I did find this disassembly guide, but, I'm not confident enough/stupid enough to do it.  ... https://www.clubsnap.com/threads/disassembling-a-summarit-50-f1-5.1158816/

[newnew]

I also have a Summarit 50 LTM with M adapter. Here is how it positions on my MP240. I never have problems with the quality of the pictures. However , I believe that the front part of the lens can be unscrewed. During a CLA it may have been positioned differently than mine.

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[newnew]

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Edited July 3, 2020 by newnew

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[MCF74]

@newnew Yep, I think that pretty much confirms it, thanks. I've had a quote back to have it fixed. I've shot the lens and the results are fantastic, so, it's just a case of biting my bottom lip and pay for the service (I paid a decent price for the lens so the service cost is palatable!)