Advice in Buying a MM9?

[Guest BlackBarn]

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56 minutes ago, Sjz said:

When I say I enjoy learning, it is not so much about how to use a specific camera, but how to get the most out of b+w, I guess older books as b+w is a bit niche now...l. Any how to B+W books?

May be you look at as many b/w photos you can and on the ones you resonate with try and figure out why you like them and try and recognize the basic characteristics which make them special....there will be a structure. Once you find this structure go out and try and replicate that structure in your photography regardless of the subject matter you choose. 

1 hour ago, Sjz said:

Part of the appeal of the Mono is learning how to get what I visualise into a b+w image.

When considering b/w you are not looking at colours nor objects such as people, trees, buildings apples or flowers but how light describes these objects. This will be through tones (light values from black to white) and the characteristics of the edges from hard to soft. The eye can be refined to visualise  seeing  tonal variances across colour but that takes time and practice and can be learnt without using a camera.

When I was training in academic drawing you were put in a studio for around  a year....6/7  days a week....with only pencil, charcoal and paper. Part of the training was to develop the eye to identify (and replicate ) the range of tonal light shapes and how to manage the transitions from one to another.. It was only after you could demonstrate that ability were you moved onto using colour. The eye became refined not just to notice colour but tonal shapes as around ninety percent of painting in colour is understanding tonal variances and their transitions.  If Leica applied this,  they wouldn’t sell you a camera capable of taking colour photographs until you could demonstrate you understood how to first shoot good photos  in b/w.

So if you put 8 different colours with the same tonal value and convert them to b/w in PP they will all look the same. The eye can also do this by simply looking when it becomes  sensitive to tonal variances as well as colour differences.  It’s noticing  the light shapes nature uses to describe objects which is the key and  not the objects themselves. If you do decide to select some of your favorite b/w photos it may be the structure of these light shapes which are common and makes them something special. 

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, BlackBarn said:

May be you look at as many b/w photos you can and on the ones you resonate with try and figure out why you like them and try and recognize the basic characteristics which make them special....there will be a structure. Once you find this structure go out and try and replicate that structure in your photography regardless of the subject matter you choose. 

When considering b/w you are not looking at colours nor objects such as people, trees, buildings apples or flowers but how light describes these objects. This will be through tones (light values from black to white) and the characteristics of the edges from hard to soft. The eye can be refined to visualise  seeing  tonal variances across colour but that takes time and practice and can be learnt without using a camera.

When I was training in academic drawing you were put in a studio for around  a year....6/7  days a week....with only pencil, charcoal and paper. Part of the training was to develop the eye to identify (and replicate ) the range of tonal light shapes and how to manage the transitions from one to another.. It was only after you could demonstrate that ability were you moved onto using colour. The eye became refined not just to notice colour but tonal shapes as around ninety percent of painting in colour is understanding tonal variances and their transitions.  If Leica applied this,  they wouldn’t sell you a camera capable of taking colour photographs until you could demonstrate you understood how to first shoot good photos  in b/w.

So if you put 8 different colours with the same tonal value and convert them to b/w in PP they will all look the same. The eye can also do this by simply looking when it becomes  sensitive to tonal variances as well as colour differences.  It’s noticing  the light shapes nature uses to describe objects which is the key and  not the objects themselves. If you do decide to select some of your favorite b/w photos it may be the structure of these light shapes which are common and makes them something special. 

And even assuming one has learned to recognize tonal variations, one comes to appreciate that, just as in darkroom days, optimizing results (especially in print) comes from post processing skills and decisions, rarely if ever sufficient unedited out of camera, regardless of color or monochrome based capture.  It’s about seeing, and judging, from the shot to the displayed print (where display lighting alone can make or break the result, no matter the prior steps).  
 

Jeff

 

[Sjz]

Hi Jeff,

Thank you for taking the time to share, perhaps if I share the mess I find myself in at times.

4 photos I took with Black and White only in mind - In my mind these two worked, it was the shapes and tones that caught my eye as I was taking the photo.

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[Sjz]

These two lwess so. 

The one at Trafalgar Square was taken with Mono in mind as I dislike the colour of the water in the basin on the fountains.

The last one just looked really dull in Mono, I was attracted by the shapes and ended up leaving the colour in to leave some interest in the image.

 

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[Sjz]

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[Sjz]

In the last one, the shapes work but there are no tones to speak of.

 

ps: sorry for having to split into so many replies, still dont have the hang of this website.

 

huge thanks to BlackBarn for what you have written.  Helps explain why the last one is so poor. No tones. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Sjz

[Jeff S]

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Sjz, once we’re allowed to gather again, I suggest you look for a good workshop, even if b&w film based.  No amount of online sharing can do justice to hands on print viewing, and even better with feedback from trusted others. Looking at prints (and even paintings and drawings) in galleries, museums and shows will likewise expand your horizons and maybe provide some goals to achieve.  
 

Jeff

Edited July 4, 2020 by Jeff S

[Sjz]

6 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Sjz, once we’re allowed to gather again, I suggest you look for a good workshop, even if b&w film based.  No amount of online sharing can do justice to hands on print viewing, and even better with feedback from trusted others. Looking at prints (and even paintings and drawings) in galleries, museums and shows will likewise expand your horizons and maybe provide some goals to achieve.  
 

Jeff

Went to the Salgado exhibition when it was in London.  Powerful beyond my capability to describe.  Over a glass of wine afterwards the general shared opinion there is probably a larger gap between the worlds best photographers and the people I was viewing with, than the worlds best golfer and me on my best day.

i will find a course, roll on the time when COVID becomes less influential over our lives.

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Sjz said:

Went to the Salgado exhibition when it was in London.  Powerful beyond my capability to describe.  Over a glass of wine afterwards the general shared opinion there is probably a larger gap between the worlds best photographers and the people I was viewing with, than the worlds best golfer and me on my best day.

i will find a course, roll on the time when COVID becomes less influential over our lives.

See if you can find a course or workshop conducted by someone whose work you admire.  Doesn’t need to be Salgado. Helps if they do their own printing; many do not... two different skill sets, but both relying on a good eye, which is harder to teach than technique.

Jeff

Edited July 4, 2020 by Jeff S

[Likaleica]

The workshop is a great idea.  I don't know if George DeWolfe is still doing them but that would be a great start.  I think Maine and Santa Fe workshops have some good courses as well.  Depends on where you live, of course.

I've used the M9M and M10M extensively, and I owned a M240 for a while so I am familiar with that platform.  To me it boils down to ergonomics and user interface, both of which go to the M10M.  Another huge plus is the high ISO capability for what I've been doing recently.  I just set the ISO to Auto with a 50,000 ceiling and have had no problems.  Sometimes if it's really dark and even at 50,000 the image is underexposed, the banding is minimal.

Sounds like you've passed on the M9M.  I can't speak for you, but given what I've experienced I would not get a M246 - others will disagree (perhaps even vehemently).  The M10M has so many improvements that it is difficult to imagine wanting anything else.  

It's a nice First World problem to have.

[Sjz]

Hi,

Just to say I got off the fence and purchased a M10M.  I had a play yesterday photos below.

First impressions are

1. Shooting with an M is different, very different.  I have pictures of the inside of my lens cap, and somehow others of my feet.
2. I can run out of shutter speed.
3. I can misfocus!
4. I am so used to seeing all the info in the viewfinder before I take a photo now I cannot, I 'chimp', when I think nobody is looking.
5. Framing is much harder.
6. The files have so much info in them its too easy to have all the details in the shadows and highlights and a very flat image.  (Just because I can - doesn't mean I should).
7. The whole process of taking photos, for me, changes - I am forced to take my time and think.
8. The whole process of Post changes for me.
9. The weight and feel of the camera and the sound of the shutter are exquisite.

I have much to learn and I am looking forward to getting somewhere onto that learning curve. 

My yellow, Orange and Red filters will appear in a few weeks.

I am excited.

Thank you to all who helped me on this journey.

Sjz

Some examples from yesterday.

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Edited July 12, 2020 by Sjz

[Sjz]

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[Sjz]

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[Sjz]

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