Elmarit R 180 versus Apo-Telyt R 180 on an SL

[Daniel81]

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Does anyone have any good experience or knowledge or information comparing the Elmarit 2.8 R 180 on an SL with the Apo-Telyt 3.4 R 180 on an SL?  I see the latter weighs about 750 g (comparable to the SL primes) while the former weighs close to a full kg.  They are comparably priced on ebay.  I'd appreciate any input.

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[adan]

1) there are actually two non-APO Elmarit-R 180mm f/2.8s (plus an APO-Telyt 180 Elmarit-R from the 1990s - far more expensive)

2) of the two non-APO Elmarits, the earliest is the large and heavy one, the other (version II) is smaller and lighter - a link to a recent discussion about those is below.

3) The APO-Telyt f/3.4 is significantly sharper and clearer than the pre-APO Elmarits, down to f/8. In fact, it is generally sharper at f/3.4 than the Elmarits are at f/5.6.

A legendary Leica lens, originally built as a secret project for the US Navy (sharp enough to capture the squadron markings on Soviet aircraft shadowing the ships) by Leitz Canada (ELCAN). Later released to the public.

Only downsides: close-focus limited to 8.2 feet/2.5m, and rougher "bokeh" (it was designed to be sharp, not "pretty.")

I haven't used any of them on the SL (should be no operational differences). I did use all three adapted to a Canon 5DII - fairly rapidly settled on the APO-Telyt for its brilliance and clarity, and moderate weight.

"Once you try APO, you'll never go back-o!"

Additional info on all three (plus the military ELCAN):

v. 1 Elmarit-R

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/180mm_f/2.8_Elmarit-R_I

v. 2 Elmarit-R

http://slrlensreview.com/web/reviews/leica-lenses/leica-telephoto/480-leica-elmarit-r-180mm-f28-e67-lens-review

Military ELCAN-R f/3.4

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/180mm_f/3.4_Elcan-R

Civilian APO-Telyt-R f/3.4

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/180mm_f/3.4_APO-Telyt-R

The APO-Telyt in use as originally intended - Canon 5DII, f/3.4

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Edited March 11, 2020 by adan

[Jared]

I can confirm that the APO-Telyt is a superb lens.  It is literally at its sharpest wide open as diffraction is already the dominant factor in resolution by f/5.6.  It is quite small and light due to the modest maximum aperture.  Downsides? Very busy bokeh.  And the focus is quite stiff when the camera is held horizontally (which is nearly all the time, of course).  I learned to apply a little extra support to the lens when focusing—making sure my camera hand was only pointing the camera, and all the weight was in my lens hand.

I never owned the 180 f/2.8 so can’t give you a comparison.

[Daniel81]

Thanks very much to both of you for your input.  As with every decision in photography - there are always tradeoffs . . . I have to get clear on precisely what it is I want to achieve with a 180 and then make a decision.  There are some pretty nice looking models of all these lenses on ebay at the moment.  One question, if you know, do they all have tripod collars?

[Jared]

No proposal color on the 180 APO-Telyt.  Don’t know about the 2.8 lenses.

[adan]

The extremely heavy version 1 Elmarit has a tripod socket/thread because of its weight. It is not a collar, and it does not rotate for verticals - you'd have to use the tripod-head tilt-control to rotate the entire camera/lens combo for vertical pictures.

The APO f/3.4 and Elmarit (II) do not have any tripod mount - they were presumed to be "hand-holdable" lenses. Or light enough to mount the camera on the tripod, and let the lens just "hang out there."

Edited March 12, 2020 by adan

[Daniel81]

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Wow - just looking at a flickr page of APO R Elmarit 180 photos - they are spectacular!!

of course that version on ebay is a lot more expensive!!

I have the R to L adaptor and it came with a tripod bracket that attaches to the adaptor - doesn't place the tripod mount 'out' along the lense - but certainly further out than the base of the camera body.

[adan]

No question the APO-Elmarit-R was the ultimate development of Leica's 180mm lenses (not counting the 180 APO-Summicron-R f/2.0 - if you really want to dream big):

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/180mm_f/2_APO-Summicron-R

I prefer the slightly less pink rendering and more moderate contrast of the Mandler lenses designed up through 1980 or so (including the APO-Telyt) - but "taste" can't be disputed.

Edited March 12, 2020 by adan

[Jared]

3 hours ago, Jared said:

No proposal color on the 180 APO-Telyt.  Don’t know about the 2.8 lenses.

Don’t know how autocorrect got that one... No ‘tripod collar’ on the APO-Telyt. As mentioned, the R-M adapter from Leica has a tripod bracket.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Jared

[Daniel81]

Maybe you guys can help me a bit . . . . I have a few odd niches of photography that attract me.  One is landscapes - but shot with telephoto lenses . . .  I love the landscape-compression effect.  BUT, I have only had experience doing this with telephotos in the 85 to 135 range.  I have never gone beyond that.  Before I plunge into this expense, I'd really like to get a sense of what landscape photography with a 180 telephoto looks like.  Do you either have some sample images you could share with me here OR any links to sites or pages where this particular 'niche' of landscape photography is well represented with some good sample images?

[frame-it]

39 minutes ago, Daniel81 said:

OR any links to sites or pages where this particular 'niche' of landscape photography is well represented with some good sample images?

https://www.flickr.com/search/?group_id=1806959%40N25&view_all=1&text=landscape

https://www.flickr.com/search/?group_id=732738%40N20&view_all=1&text=landscape

https://www.flickr.com/groups/telescapes/pool/

https://www.flickr.com/search/?group_id=1393607%40N20&view_all=1&text=landscape

[a.noctilux]

Hello Daniel,

To figure it out, like which focal length you need for your lanscapes pictures, try to go "there" with a good pair of binocular.

At once, I had 10x40 Leitz, then I've found that to match the x10 view, I need the Telyt 6.8/400 (even 560 later).

But maybe with "newer" 8x42 variety (or my favorite tiny Trinovid 10x25 ), I can "see" with modest Apo-Telyt-R 4/280 or 3.4/180 (lighter) which may be used with Apo-Extender x2 if required.

 

Seeing other types of tele-landscapes photos "on line" can help but I think your own experiences do it better.

Anyway, each 180mm IS good choice, if you accept compromises, weight, long focus, price, etc.

[Daniel81]

This is a 180 for sale on ebay - all the photos - it looks practically new . . . . but look at the metal ring at the base. . . . see the upper left area, there is a bit of a black strip which then gets substantially thicker, larger and variegated as it curves round to the right side.  What do you think that is?  It's black.  Could it be some cheap black plastic or rubber that came off when perhaps the lens was forced onto a cheap knock - off adaptor??  (just my first thought). What do you think?

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[adan]

it is a normal black metal stairstep at the back edge of the aperture ring.

See this page - click on image to enlarge if necessary

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/File:R-180f28a.jpg

 

[Exodies]

I think he’s talking about the dirt on the flange.

[a.noctilux]

2 hours ago, Exodies said:

I think he’s talking about the dirt on the flange.

Or just the "cropping" ( 😉 "software cutting" ) of the image on the aperture ring.

[Daniel81]

yeah, I am talking about what appears to be either dirt or some kind of cheap rubber/plastic residue on the flange (thanks, I forgot that word 'flange').  On the right of the flange , it gets jagged-edged - almost making it look like a 'gouging' of the metal?  

[adan]

Ahh - the black smears on the chrome itself in line with the screw heads?

I get something like that on M lenses - and the camera's flange face as well - all the time. No plastic or rubber or adapters involved. Wipes right off with a fingertip.

For years I though it was an oil or grease of some kind - until I realized there simply was no way that much grease could keep getting on the mounts over and over after I wiped it off.

My suspicion now is that it is environmental dust or dirt grains that get crushed to a really fine flour (like grain between millstones) between the tight-fitting camera flange and lens flange as lenses are mounted and unmounted. Especially where the edges of the countersunk screw-holes act like "guillotines" to slice the dust.

Once the dust gets crushed fine enough (fraction of a micron), it acts strangely due to electrostatic charges, van der Waals forces, and such, and behaves like a sticky goo or black grease - even though perfectly dry. It tends to clump together, as well as to the surface.

But it may also be a function of chromium oxide's self-lubricating properties - which is, of course, exactly why lens mounts are chromium-plated to begin with.

Anyway, if it worries you, make sure you have return privileges, or ask the seller about it, or just look for another lens.

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by adan

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[Daniel81]

Thanks!  That all makes total sense.  Well, it was on ebay and had the 'MAke an Offer' option so I made an offer $700 below the asking price and he accepted ( it is 'near mint' and otherwise looks amazing - even the 'leather tag' is still on the case which makes me suspect it was perhaps a store demo copy . . . so, a 180 is on the way - its from Austria - a leica dealer with 100% ebay customer satisfaction . . . hopefully all goes well.  AND now another question. . . . . anyone have experience using the 2x Extender?  Of course, putting the R to L adaptor (this is on an SL) (and the tripod bracket that came with the R to L adaptor), THEN a 2x Extender and THEN the 180 on  . . . . its all getting rather long and heavy!

Edited March 13, 2020 by Daniel81

[adan]

Someone who can tell the difference from that picture will have to tell you if that is an APO-Elmarit v.1 or v.2.

The v.2 was a slight redesign precisely to allow use of the APO 2x extender, which pokes into the lens barrel a cm or so. A v.1 cannot mount the APO 2x (an oversight by Leica), but can be used with the regular Leica 2X extender, or others that don't protrude forwards so much..

I've used the 180 APO-Telyt with the very good, but not Leica, Kenko 300 Pro extenders. Could see no image degradation at all on an Canon 5DII.