Let's have a look at some DNG files from the M10M

[Chaemono]

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This second one is with Highlights -75 in LR and some other minor tweaks.

Edit - forgot to mention, yellow filter used.

Less compressed JPEG here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-7XdTDJ/

M10M + APO 50 Summicron-M opened in LR with default sharpening

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ISO 160 f/2 @1/125 sec.

Same as above with Highlights -75 and some other minor tweaks

Edited January 25, 2020 by Chaemono

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[Chaemono]

This one also with a yellow filter and the second one with Highlights -84 in LR plus other adjustments and a slight crop (for both).  Look at the branches of the tree on the left.

Less compressed JPEG here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-7XdTDJ/

M10M + APO 50 Summicron-M with LR default sharpening and slightly cropped. DNG download link here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g416822088-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=GZNCzycgop2qt58yA2gxAgrCY46lX6HvStDqme-npHo=

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ISO 160 f/2 @1/250 sec.

Same as above with Highlights -84 and other adjustments

Edited January 25, 2020 by Chaemono

[benaparis]

Now the real life confirmation :

As you can see on the first CaptureOne screenshot M10 and M10M expose the same way (f stop approx of the camera is wrong, actually it is set at f11), of course due to different tonal response you get different tonality (here the exposure warning is set to 10 in shadows and 255 for the highlights). As explained before due to lack of color filter array on the Monochrom you have little bit more highlight and yet less recovery than with the color camera which is confirmed in the second screenshot where I recovered as much information as available, but that is how the Monochrom works and that's a known fact since the first Monochrom is available.

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Edited January 25, 2020 by benaparis

[benaparis]

Now lets get into the shadows, I have pushed the exposure slider on both image at +4EV and if you look in detail at pixel size with the M10 you start to see some muddy noise where in the M10M image you still have a clean enough image where you can even see the tissue pattern. It becomes even more interesting when you realize that the M10M image is 31% larger than the M10 so you can expect even better result at the same print size.

This is of course extreme and in real life no one will push the shadows at such level, unless you really miss your exposure which is always a possibility 😉

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Edited January 25, 2020 by benaparis

[snooper]

5 hours ago, otto.f said:

This is way beyond what the human eye does. 

Just FYI the human eye has an average of 20 stops DR, but for some people it can go much farther. We used to do some tests in the AirForce on peripheral night vision (with a highlight spot in the center) and the results were sometimes surprising. 

Besides this I agree with everything you all say. I still need to figure how reducing the highlights and pulling up the lowlights cannot be called narrowing the DR. Light is a wave, just as sound is. If you move up anything at is at 20hz to 100 hz and bring down to 10khz everything originally at 20Khz, your new "dynamic range" is not 20Hz-20Khz anymore but 100hz-10Khz. And if you have a normal ear, you'll notice the difference.

But once again, everything else is possible 😂

[Chaemono]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb snooper:

Just FYI the human eye has an average of 20 stops DR, but for some people it can go much farther. We used to do some tests in the AirForce on peripheral night vision (with a highlight spot in the center) and the results were sometimes surprising. 

Besides this I agree with everything you all say. I still need to figure how reducing the highlights and pulling up the lowlights cannot be called narrowing the DR. Light is a wave, just as sound is. If you move up anything at is at 20hz to 100 hz and bring down to 10khz everything originally at 20Khz, your new "dynamic range" is not 20Hz-20Khz anymore but 100hz-10Khz. And if you have a normal ear, you'll notice the difference.

But once again, everything else is possible 😂

My argument only makes sense if one accepts that DR is synonymous with adjustment latitude.  In that case the M10M can be considered to have great DR because it produces very little shot and read noise, less than the M 240, M10, SL and SL2, and, therefore, allows for more ‘push-ability’ of the shadows in post than any of these other cameras.  What this means is that one is less limited in one’s ability to decrease exposure to expose so as not to blow highlights in high contrast scenes, because one will have more latitude/scope to correct (brighten) dark tones in post-processing.      

However, a monochrome camera (from the M 246 onwards, it seems, not the M9M) will be more prone to blowing highlights than a camera with a color sensor because of the lack of color channels.  Beyond that it gets too scientific for me.  See Andy’s posts in the thread  below.  One way to make the Monochrom less likely to blow sky highlights, for example, is to use an orange filter.  I basically always use a yellow filter.  

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Chaemono

[benaparis]

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1 hour ago, snooper said:

Just FYI the human eye has an average of 20 stops DR, but for some people it can go much farther. We used to do some tests in the AirForce on peripheral night vision (with a highlight spot in the center) and the results were sometimes surprising. 

Besides this I agree with everything you all say. I still need to figure how reducing the highlights and pulling up the lowlights cannot be called narrowing the DR. Light is a wave, just as sound is. If you move up anything at is at 20hz to 100 hz and bring down to 10khz everything originally at 20Khz, your new "dynamic range" is not 20Hz-20Khz anymore but 100hz-10Khz. And if you have a normal ear, you'll notice the difference.

But once again, everything else is possible 😂

Your analogy is right. If we come back to photography the story has always been the same in the history of photography processing/printing (especially B&W) : How to manage 12 to 15 EV of usable DR (film or digital) into an 8/9EV image which is pleasing to look at. I suggest you to read this article (sorry still in french but the pictures before and after speak for themselves): https://www.konbini.com/fr/culture/retouche-photo-paolo-inirio-photoshop/ 

You understand now the importance compromise and the use of selective masking to achieve a great look which you can do with any good software (Lr, ACR, C1...etc..), of course it takes time but it may worth the time spent. If you shoot landscape or architecture for example it may easier because you can use gradient mask. With this photo taken with the M10M (it is not a good photo it is only for testing purpose) you can see the difference before and after, and the difference between the wrong usage of shadow/highlight recovery slider (middle) and one using mask (actualy gradient mask). I don't pretend it's a great processing it is just to illustrate my purpose.

My two cents

 

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Edited January 25, 2020 by benaparis

[benaparis]

Error

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by benaparis

[benaparis]

Last example with high dynamic scene : Sometimes it is useless to preserve too much highlight because you can't show everything and better expose more to your subject. 

You can find the DNGs with different exposure to play with : https://we.tl/t-0YoYz5GgD9

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Edited January 25, 2020 by benaparis

[snooper]

Merci Benjamin !

So theoretically, no Monochrom sensor can take as much as the human eye can take, etc, etc.

Back in my 246 days, I did a couple of stupid shots that I've never even looked at. But today I did. I will show you some even more demonstrative with the M9M... This one is against the sun, no clipping in LR with a -61 on whites. The guy in the lower right corner was obviously in total "contre jour". I'll post a crop of the wall of this Lima (Peru) lighthouse. I wish I could see the better M10M in these conditions.

Once again this pic is no interest at all as a picture. But interesting for the highlights and the lowlights it embarks.

Have a great week end !

 

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Edited January 25, 2020 by snooper

[Chaemono]

It was too foggy to change lenses and I, therefore, used the SL2 to compare, not the M10.  It is indeed critical to expose in order to protect highlights with the M10M.  If they are clipped, there is no way to recover any detail there.  It is different with the SL2 and I suppose it's due to the color channels.  In the area that looks to contain a blown highlight, the T-shirt collar, details can be recovered in post.  I'm not sure if it's due to the capabilities of the SL2's sensor or due to the presence of color channels that are not all blown.  I suspect it's the latter.  Look how close the shutter speed is in the two M10M pictures, one loses the highlight detail for good, the other retains it. 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-3WWMzq/

M10M T-shirt collar blown at 1/90 sec.  Link to download the DNG here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g399513853-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=WdZH8fe-zBYXWRkwmDCcY3b2lr_-jfNUN1Q_L9dnnH0=

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M10 exposed to protect highlights at 1/125 sec. Link to download the DNG here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g399513853-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=WdZH8fe-zBYXWRkwmDCcY3b2lr_-jfNUN1Q_L9dnnH0=

SL2 ETTR because highlight detail can be recovered in post easily in this slightly over exposed picture. Link to donwload the DNG here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g120114084-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=w5bEbdfFE6N2bSsJxRr4ejTsWfVogyT7Dv1Onj4yJyc=

Edited January 25, 2020 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

And now the recovered collar detail.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-3WWMzq/

M10M T-shirt collar blown at 1/90 sec., no way to recover details in post.

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M10M T-shirt collar detail protected.

SL2 collar detail can be recovred

[Likaleica]

53 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

And now the recovered collar detail.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-3WWMzq/

M10M T-shirt collar blown at 1/90 sec., no way to recover details in post.

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M10M T-shirt collar detail protected.

SL2 collar detail can be recovred

Chaemono, just curious if you have reached any conclusions yet.

And thanks for going to all the trouble to perform these tests for us.  Takes a lot of time and effort.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Likaleica

[Chaemono]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Likaleica:

Chaemono, just curious if you have reached any conclusions yet.                
[...]

Not yet.  I still want to compare the ‘push-ability’ of the files to the M10, Z7, and the X1D II, particularly at high ISO, see when banding shows up if the files are push hard.

What I can say so far is that I fully agree with the statement in #43 that “...due to lack of color filter array on the Monochrom you have little bit more highlight and yet less recovery than with the color camera.”  Therefore, the M10M cannot be exposed like a color camera at all but has to be exposed always in such a way that highlights are protected no matter how underexposed the lowlights will look.  The strength of the M10M, of course, is that the shadows can be pushed to the max and still look very clean.  Considering that it has 41 MPx this is amazing.  The author of this excellent write-up here:  https://www.ultrasomething.com/2020/01/paradox-view-the-m10-monochrom/  put it this way: “[the strength of the M10M in high contrast scenes is] the sensor’s ability to extract another stop or two of Zone 1 detail (while simultaneously reducing the amount of visible banding in those zones)...”

And further: “What’s even more important, is that Leica has somehow managed to increase the camera’s low light fidelity while increasing its pixel density. So, while the M246 and M10 Monochroms both have the same recommended maximum speed of ISO 12500, the new model actually delivers impressive and downright stunning results at this setting. Whereas, frankly, I considered anything north of 6400 to be a “push mode” in the old M246. And speaking of push modes, both cameras allow for an ISO 25,000 push, with the new M10 Monochrom also allowing 50,000 and 100,000 options. I sometimes shot the new M10 Monochrom at ISO 25,000, and was perfectly satisfied. ISO 50,000 is usable if you don’t manhandle the image too truculently in post-processing, but at 100,000 there is simply too much banding for it to be your first choice should you wish to photograph infinite voids in deep space.

It’s still sometimes possible to make patterns appear in the noise floor of an M10 Monochrom file when you rotate or geometrically distort an image. Anyone who’s seen this with either of the earlier Monochroms will continue to see it with the new M10 version. The extent to which these patterns are visible has always been dependent on a RAW converter’s interpolation algorithms. For example, when I use Lightroom to render a file, I see more pattern noise than when I use Exposure 5. The good news is, the M10 Monochrom goes an extra stop or two beyond the M246 before it starts to visibly band, and any noise patterns that do result from geometric distortion are finer and easier to correct. If I’m going to aggressively shove pixels around on a high ISO file, I’ve found that a single application of Photoshop’s Despeckle tool (applied before the editing process) is all that’s required to virtual eliminate any patterns from forming. As mentioned, other RAW converters may minimize the artifact, as does shooting in JPG. It’s a rather minor problem with many workarounds, and anyone shooting with an earlier version of the Monochrom who hasn’t noticed it previously, probably won’t notice it now.”

Edited January 26, 2020 by Chaemono

[Guest Nowhereman]

@Chaemono - I agree with what Gregory Simpson says, and his is the best review I've read so far. The trouble is that I find the images he posts it also having a muddy tonal palettes, like many other images posted that one sees from the M10M: maybe he's anxious to show how much the M10M can pull out of the shadows. However, those dark scenes that he shoots have a lot of blacks in them, which need to be very dark to give the feeling of the real scene. On the other hand when I first saw David Farkas' second video, the one in which he shows his M10M shots, I was away by the beautiful mid-tones and their clarity and detail — and I linked it in some thread or other; but when I looked at the video the next day, I was less charmed by the images and their Johnny-One-Note uniformity of tone. They only show the M10M's resolution and, apart form one or two shots, are dull. For me, the best examples of what the M10M can do are in Alan Schaller's video on the Leica website. This video has much more daring and interesting shots, going to the edge of full black and full white and high contrast, with some of the images also with rich mid-tones. In a post in another thread, someone wrote that the Schaller shots were taken with the M246. I find hard to believe that, considering that this is the Leica M10M promotional video which shows Schaller walking around shooting with, and speaking about, the M10M

Thanks for the DNGs for download. However, it looks like in your two "t-shirt" links you provided the same file, the one at 1/90 sec, with the collar blown out. I don't think it matters, though. I processed the file in high contrast, in effort to get away from the muddy tonal palette that I've been seeing in a lot of M10M shots posted.  I haven't been entirely successful in this, but do have the feeling the files are malleable. Though this file wa shot at ISO 160 and I might have been able to get a result I liked better from an M10 file by using the color sliders. I higher ISO file might tell me more.

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[Chaemono]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Nowhereman:

@Chaemono - I agree with what Gregory Simpson says, and his is the best review I've read so far. The trouble is that I find the images he posts it also having a muddy tonal palettes, like many other images posted that one sees from the M10M: maybe he's anxious to show how much the M10M can pull out of the shadows. However, those dark scenes that he shoots have a lot of blacks in them, which need to be very dark to give the feeling of the real scene. On the other hand when I first saw David Parkas' second video, the one in which he shows his M10M shots, I was away by the beautiful mid-tones and their clarity and detail — and I linked it in some thread or other; but when I looked at the video the next day, I was less charmed by the images and their Johnny-One-Note uniformity of tone. They only show the M10M's resolution and, apart form one or two shots, are dull. For me, the best examples of what the M10M can do are in Alan Schaller's video on the Leica website. This video has much more daring and interesting shots, going to the edge of full black and full white and high contrast, with some of the images also with rich mid-tones. In a post in another thread, someone wrote that the Schaller shots were taken with the M246.
[...]

You seem to want to make every thread about how aesthetically pleasing are the pictures that one takes with the M10M.  Ultimately, how one uses the Monochrom is up to them.  I like the feel of Gregory Simpson’s photos in that review a lot and they do relate to the technical capabilities of the M10M he writes about.  He states that he hardly ever stops walking when he shoots which means that he must use a high shutter speed with the lens stopped down, in low-light, and, consequently, very high ISO.  He is enthralled with the capabilities of the camera in this respect and rightly so.

The OP clearly frames the topic of this thread in his initial post: “...how the camera is dealing with low / highlights inside a given scene.”  What we want to see here, therefore, is what are the strengths and weaknesses of the M10M in this respect so that users are better informed where and how to use it.  Whether one is able to make the aesthetically pleasing B&W photography with this Monochrom is a different discussion.  So far, we’ve been able to confirm what Gregory Simpson found about the sensor’s ability in high contrast scenes.  This gives a bit more comfort that with the M10M one is less limited in one’s ability to decrease exposure to expose so as not to blow highlights in high contrast scenes, because one will have more latitude/scope to correct (brighten) dark tones in post-processing.

[benaparis]

12 hours ago, snooper said:

Merci Benjamin !

So theoretically, no Monochrom sensor can take as much as the human eye can take, etc, etc.

Back in my 246 days, I did a couple of stupid shots that I've never even looked at. But today I did. I will show you some even more demonstrative with the M9M... This one is against the sun, no clipping in LR with a -61 on whites. The guy in the lower right corner was obviously in total "contre jour". I'll post a crop of the wall of this Lima (Peru) lighthouse. I wish I could see the better M10M in these conditions.

Once again this pic is no interest at all as a picture. But interesting for the highlights and the lowlights it embarks.

Have a great week end !

 

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You are very welcome Antoine, I am very happy if I can help.

Regarding your last post I am very sorry to say that your photo is not particularly challenging. I dare to say without any doubt that any entry level camera and even my 2,5 years old IPhone are able to handle the same way such a scene, let me prove it with an even more “contre-jour) 😉 (It is an Iphone X DNG very basically processed in Lr mobile)

By the way when you move the white slider to avoid clipping highlights it does not necessarily mean you recovered any photographic material but you may just have grayed pure white.

Like I said in a previous message you can’t compare with biased comparison, it is where measurements are interesting because it’s facts, actually the ugly "truth" lies there : http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

As you can see even the M10 has a little bit more DR than the M246 (and way more than the MM1), I demonstrate earlier that the M10M has little more dynamic range than the M10 which my calculations had previously confirmed.

If my expertise as a professional photographer and science still don’t convince you maybe common sense will? : Can you imagine just 1 second Leica launching a camera that performs less in DR with a sensor that was designed approximately 7 years after the one used on the M246 and and 10 years after the one used in the MM1?

So I can assure you without a single doubt that the M10M in the same condition will perform much better in the shadows where only lies the dynamic range of a camera, even if IMHO for aesthetics reason in this case I prefer to have stronger shadows.

Have a good day.

[snooper]

59 minutes ago, benaparis said:

Regarding your last post I am very sorry to say that your photo is not particularly challenging. I dare to say without any doubt that any entry level camera and even my 2,5 years old IPhone are able to handle the same way such a scene, let me prove it with an even more “contre-jour) 😉 (It is an Iphone X DNG very basically processed in Lr mobile)

 

This is exactly what I meant to say ! And I perfectly agree with you ! My post was just an answer to a fellow forum user saying basically there was no f&§$ùg way any sensor in the world could handle that highlight on the black book cover, nor could our eyes handle it. Demonstration could have been made with a smartphone indeed !

Besides this, and without entering into details, the algorithm behind the highlight / lowlight sliders in LR is a bit more complex than replacing white values by grey values (shift down). Like a compressor works for "low lights" of sound, if you are familiar.. Anything dealing with waves is logarithmic, but no need to go on that complex path to check how the highlights are handled by the M10M. As they say in Big Bang Theory : "I'm just an engineer".

In the meantime we start to see much better pictures from the M10M. I was not the only one here who got a bit surprised by the blurry and flat first shot we've seen around D day.

And I'm really happy you are enjoying "my" M10M that Marc sold you the minute I told him I'd wait and see :-))

A bientôt pour un café Ave de Suffren !

Edited January 26, 2020 by snooper

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[benaparis]

48 minutes ago, snooper said:

This is exactly what I meant to say ! And I perfectly agree with you ! My post was just an answer to a fellow forum user saying basically there was no f&§$ùg way any sensor in the world could handle that highlight on the black book cover, nor could our eyes handle it. Demonstration could have been made with a smartphone indeed !

Besides this, and without entering into details, the algorithm behind the highlight / lowlight sliders in LR is a bit more complex than replacing white values by grey values (shift down). Anything dealing with waves is logarithmic, but no need to go on that complex path to check how the highlights are handled by the M10M. As they say in Big Bang Theory : "I'm just an engineer".

In the meantime we start to see much better pictures from the M10M. I was not the only one here who got a bit surprised by the blurry and flat first shot we've seen around D day.

And I'm really happy you are enjoying "my" M10M that Marc sold you the minute I told him I'd wait and see :-))

A bientôt pour un café Ave de Suffren !

Ok I thought you were replying to my post.

Yes I know that Lr HDR sliders or other software are bit more complex, I am just pointing out the fact that when data is lost when you take the picture it is lost forever and at some point when you push at some level the highlight/white sliders pure white start to gray, so you may get a photo where there is no clipping highlights but with previous burned highlights without details. Every digital sensor handle the highlights exactly the same way assuming the fact that they are all natively monochrome (btw saturation point is usually set around 3 stops from the exposure), so the M10M is no different from other monochrome cameras even compared with the very expensive PhaseOne Achromatic...the difference lies in the shadows (noise). I am no engineer but I know how my camera works 😉

I am sure you will see even better photography with this camera...I don't publish yet as am testing the camera to see how it behave in different conditions, how to process them the way I like etc...etc...it usually takes time before I really start to work seriously with it but I have to say that I am very impressed so far. Usually I never rely on the first images available on the net because most of the time they don't come from serious photographer whom have terrible knowledge and experience in the digital darkroom ; I prefer to wait for serious reviews like Sean Reid.

With pleasure for a coffee. 🙂

 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by benaparis

[epand56]

On 1/25/2020 at 8:15 AM, Chaemono said:

I'm sure you eat lots of mozzarella cheese but I don't comment on your weight. 😂

Chaemono, mozzarella cheese is more of the South of Italy, in Turin we eat a lot of Agnolotti 😂It was just a joke, I know you guys are posting your pictures just to prevent me from being fool enough to buy an M 10M 😀