What if Leica make an APS-C size point and shooter to backup the M8?

[sdai]

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Indeed, but the cameras they are building outside of Japan - in China, the Philipinnes, Thailand are the entry level and mid-range cameras where costs need to be pared to the bone. Leica will never produce cameras themselves at this point and their chosen route is not to sub-contract their own manufacture but to rebadge a bought-in product from one of the majors.

 

A better comparison is the high end cameras. Nikon still makes the D2x and the professional lenses in Japan, even if the consumer lenses are made in, for example, Thailand. For high end product, "Made in Japan" is as important for Nikon as "Made in Germany" is for Leica.

 

I agree, a "Made in China" sticker may not sound very fancy to the Leica aficionados but the true reason why Canon, Nikon etc haven't brought their top dogs production into China is because they don't want allow the Chinese access to their high end key components, Japanese businesses have already been ultra conservative in handling their China operations and that's why Volkswagon could sweep the Chinese market for many years and still can't be beaten by the Japanese.

 

Nikon, for example, has no problems putting the D200 together in Thailand ...

 

Now Mercedes, BMW, Audi, all German top dogs can now be built in China so you can see the labor quality is there ... I'm seeing Honda Accord, VW Golfs, Passat, Audi A4s built in China sold here in America. So why can't a camera been built there?

 

I actually think that this can be another rebadged model too ... one key concept is getting an authentic Leica design in there, not just the Lumixs.

[sdai]

No, vaporware has no size or mass

 

So when is this wonderful camera going to be a real product I can buy?

 

Good point ... I guess Sigma really has hit bunkers, Foveon, battery, heat rediation, whatever. Shows they've never really made a good camera.

[sdai]

Why not a cute APS-C Leica DL with a decent AA filter, a shutter lever, a manual ISO ring and a reversible LCD?

 

This will probably be the most popular thing among the Leica enthusiasts, but I'm afraid it'll bite into M8 sales ... great minds do think alike.

[sdai]

The point of this is that unless the DP1 takes images miles ahead of the Canon G7, which I would see as its natural competitor, it will struggle to sell any better than Sigma's other digital offerings. I can only assume the lens side massively subsidizes the camera side.

 

I've little doubt that a bigger sensor will certainly yield far better results ... IMO Sigma's major issue with their current offerings is really about cost/performance ratio. There's basically no major technical issues but who is going to pay more than 1000 dollars for a 4MP camera? especially when the brand itself doesn't add any premium. Putting a Leica moniker on the body will no doubt make a big difference otherwise why Panasonic would strike a deal with Leica? and Sony bother to name their higher grade optics after Zeiss?

[dhsimmonds]

Wilson, since my LC-1 is away at the "vets" for sensor replacement, I too am looking for a small p & s jobbie as a back-up.

 

I am seriously looking at the Ricoh Caplio GX100. At 10Mpx, Raw and JPEG, F2.4 24-72 lens and optional EVF that can also be used as a waist finder, neat and sort of pocketable as well. The old film Ricoh GR was a cracking fixed lens wide angle camera with a great optic, so the GX100 might be worth looking at as perhaps a better built alternative to the Lumix range.

[Riley]

forget it

the world tried APS C RD-1 and it was voted out by the tribe. So honestly what is the point of this? Is it to be cheaper ? RD1 was over $3k, is that cheap? I see values of $1,500 touted. If its meant to be a compact camera with good iso performance beyond what is available in sub-compacts then design it like that. Suitable as a B body pro support, travel camera, quality compact at affordable price point.

 

If it is half an M8 then logically 4/3rds sensor from Panasonic is the way to go, Panasonic dont have an APS C sensor. The real issue becomes that using M glass becomes hopelessly long in focal and no-one is going to make a new lens suite for such a low run camera.

• Either Leica would have to provide wider FL M mounts from a minimum 12-14 mm (which might in any event be useful anyway) to meet the gap to 21mm (42mm EFL).In APS C the 21mm M would be 32mm on 1.52x crop anyway. (hello Olympus)
  
• Or a fixed short zoom of say 28-90 like LC1/D2 and zooming RF window. As an interchangeable lens mount with its machining and electrical connections (ordinarily) costs money weight and bulk and introduces anomalies like dust.
  

[wlaidlaw]

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Wilson, since my LC-1 is away at the "vets" for sensor replacement, I too am looking for a small p & s jobbie as a back-up.

 

I am seriously looking at the Ricoh Caplio GX100. At 10Mpx, Raw and JPEG, F2.4 24-72 lens and optional EVF that can also be used as a waist finder, neat and sort of pocketable as well. The old film Ricoh GR was a cracking fixed lens wide angle camera with a great optic, so the GX100 might be worth looking at as perhaps a better built alternative to the Lumix range.

 

Dave,

 

I am not surprised your LC1 is away at the vets. Every Panasonic or Panasonic built Leica I or the family have every had has died, some more than once. Digliux 1, Diglilux 2, FX8 and D-Lux1. I came across an old Canon digital when I was back in the UK last week-end and the whole house was upside down, as we have builders in re-modeling most of the ground floor. I was looking for something else, which I did not find but did find the Canon. It must be about 1997/98 vintage as it is 1.1 megapixels, with an LCD about the size of a postage stamp. Just for fun I popped a 2CR5 battery in, it immediately sprang to life and would take pictures. They don't make them like that any more!

 

PurelyGadgets.co.uk: Digital Cameras, Camcorders, IT products, MP3 players, Hi-Fi, SLR lens, GPS has the GX100 VF kit at a price that is less than the HK sharks are offering them at.

 

Wilson

[hankg]

Leica is already committed to 4/3 with Panasonic for the price point below the M and R lines so you won't see a pile of money spent developing an aps-c camera which would wind up being to big and to expensive and competing in the same segment as the D line.

 

A Ricoh GRD style compact based on the the D-lux/Lumix LX digicams would not require much in the way of development and engineering. Fixed 35mm or 40mm equivalent f/2.5 or f/2.8 lens to get max quality at min size and cost. A really good small fixed optical finder (that will likely add $200 to the cost right there). Some simple chunky analogue controls.

 

A mode for hyperfocal distance and the finder's parallax correction should be set to that distance. Sell it for around $800.

 

A second possibility would be a simple stepped zoom say a Bi-Summarit 28 + 50 equivalent. Switch focal lengths by turning the viewfinder knurled ring. Most photographers that use pro level cameras have compact digicams and bemoan the awful interface and lack of a decent finder -100's of models out there all based on the same abysmal design.

 

It's not really a backup to an M8 but it would put a credible Leica offering in the small sensor reportage camera segment that Ricoh has pretty much to itself with the GRD. You just need to learn to embrace the noise like photographers did with the original Barnack cameras based on that new small sensor format 35mm film.

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[hankg]

One more note. It would be great if Lieca could squeeze a aps-c or even a 4/3 size sensor into a small compact digicam but it will never happen (at least not in the near future). Anything with that size sensor from Leica would be big and expensive. Maybe one day, if full frame ever becomes a reality the 1.33 crop Leica will become the cheaper line.

[Olsen]

I have suggested this before; that Leica now attacks the 1,5 crop segment of the M-market now that Epson seems to have gone out. That is to make a 'digital CL':

 

1,5 crop

Say 8 mill. pixels.

M-compatible

No mechanical shutter, but solid state (with added noice)

Price 2,500 US$

 

...

 

And what Leica could do is to make the same camera in a 3/4 version... Or with interchangable bayonettes; M or 3/4. (Hello again, Olympus!)

[dfarkas]

I still wish that Leica could make a digital CM. The CM was the first Leica point and shoot made in Germany. A few years ago when we took a trip to Tuscany, I bought my wife one and she loved it. The CM really is a very nice camera, and would make an excellent body for a 4/3 digital with a fast prime AF lens. I really don't like the idea of the camera bearing the "Made in China" label.

 

David

[george +]

Pleasee forgive my seemingly negative attitude on this topic.

 

This is NOT a mechanical camera like the CL where they could skim much on the details and quality.

 

You can have a smaller sensor and a simpler finder indeed. And you can have a cheaper, less durable, less attractive body like the CL. (It was not a beauty - I have one) Against that you have to count a good lens and the amortization of the new development. The electronics would be about the same. Maybe more if you want it smaller. And you will need new firmware.

 

So how much will that save? And for what size market?

 

Sorry!

[Jlondon53]

Just go out and get a D-lux 3. It's what I use as an M8 backup and even find that in hasty situations, it's what I reach for the most. I've had no reason not too unless I'm suspecting that I might want to make a very large print or need a faster shutter response time. Up to a certain size, there's not that much difference anyway in the photos anyway (oooh I'm going to get it for that one). The 15mm Voitlander that sits under the dlux in my small Hadley is feeling quite neglected because of it. My 135 as well.

As a matter of fact, I would say that I don't use it as a back-up, but as an alternative to changing lenses on the M8 which usually has a 24 or 35 parked on it.

[wlaidlaw]

Just go out and get a D-lux 3. It's what I use as an M8 backup and even find that in hasty situations, it's what I reach for the most. I've had no reason not too unless I'm suspecting that I might want to make a very large print or need a faster shutter response time. Up to a certain size, there's not that much difference anyway in the photos anyway (oooh I'm going to get it for that one). The 15mm Voitlander that sits under the dlux in my small Hadley is feeling quite neglected because of it. My 135 as well.

As a matter of fact, I would say that I don't use it as a back-up, but as an alternative to changing lenses on the M8 which usually has a 24 or 35 parked on it.

 

John,

 

You are ignoring that lots of people like me, hate using an LCD at arms length, as their viewfinder. I can live with an EVF - I did quite happily for 18 months with my Digilux 2 and for another 12 months with my Sony R1. However I thoroughly disliked using my Sony T10 and found the Canon Ixus 850, even with its slightly tunnel like optical finder, much better.

 

Wilson

[hankg]

The problem with Leica developing a aps-c from scratch in house is that it will wind up the size of the M8 and cost over $2500. Judging from the size of it's 4/3 cameras it will never squeeze an aps-c sensor into anything as small as the CM or CL. So you will wind up with a camera the same size and IQ as the rebadged Panasonic Digilux but costing quite a bit more to cover the expensive development from scratch and even more then quite a bit more if it's made in Germany.

 

So while the idea of a digital CM or CL with an aps-c sensor for $1600 sounds great I don't think Leica can come close to producing it.

[wlaidlaw]

If a little company like Sigma can do it (or nearly) with their DP1, why not Leica/Panasonic?

 

Wilson

[hankg]

The operative word is nearly. The camera was announced last year and is still not out. So for all intents and purposes you are talking about a product that doesn't exist. Considering the time it's taking to come to market it must be proving a difficult undertaking. It's not likely Leica has the resources to divert from the M and R for another ground up platform. Especially one that would be an engineering challenge like stuffing a large sensor into such a small package for a much lower price point then the M8. Remember Leica already has a product in this segment the Digilux and it's huge compared to the CM.

 

It's an attractive idea but an M8 for $2500 would be an attractive idea to. It's just not going to happen in the near future.