*4* New Summarits

[meatboy]

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There are several 35 Cron Asphs for sale in the B&S forum. One chrome one for €1200, one black one for $1949, another black one for €1350, another black one for $1975, all fair prices, and several of them are as new, or actually new. I am not sure what you have missed, unless you are hoping for one of those grandfather's old lens for €300 deals. I am also selling mine, a perfect black copy with no focusing issues, for €1300.

 

Thanks for the heads up Carsten, what I have "missed" is good deals here in Australia. To buy a lens outside Australia I face Customs and could be paying not only 10% duty but possibly a import firms fees. I could have a go at a USA supplied lens but I have to factor the possibility of more costs to get it here.

 

Thanks I will check out the forum ones anyhow.

[Joop van Heijgen]

Joop - I was referring to the following from your earlier post;

 

These new lenses are 'cost cutting' lenses!

 

Mechanical they will probably not have the qualitiy of the 'older' types!

 

You cannot make a lens like the Summarit-M 90/2,5 for the lower price of a Elmarit 90/2,8 M with the same optical and mechanical quality!

 

'Well kept secret" They are made in China and they put it in a box in Germany!

 

On the box: 'Made in Germany"[/i]

 

So, you have seen and used these lenses? You have visited the secret Chinese factory?

 

Please go and waste your time elsewhere if you have nothing worthwhile to contribute.

 

 

It' s my sense of humor about the Chinese factory! I call it irony, isn't it...............?

You don't like it? OK my waste of time for you...

 

On the other statements you can give your reaction or not, like others do, see here before!

 

- These new lenses are 'cost cutting' lenses!

 

- Mechanical they will probably not have the qualitiy of the 'older' types!

 

- You cannot make a lens like the Summarit-M 90/2,5 for the lower price of a Elmarit 90/2,8 M with the same optical and mechanical quality!

[Joop van Heijgen]

Fellows,

 

Lets not be too hard on Joop. At least he doesn't start any threads (in English at least), nor does he post a photo of himself.

 

Moving on to the thread subject, I think Leica is producing these lenses because they think that they can sell them, and I'll bet they are right. thrid is on the right track regarding the design/manufacturing efficiences they appear to employ.

 

And while I don't have the Southwest USA/Solms hotline that Guy does, I wouldn't be surprised to see a new film M body at next years Photokina, somewhat along the lines of the old M2, sans MP/MP3 engraving and meter. Black only. Little if any new tooling would be required.

 

With transparency film reaching the end of its economic life (processing), and non-tranparancy film with its greater latitude, a meter isn't that necessary. Now if the new lenses can bend the photons near what the old glass could, Leica will be OK for awhile.

 

Best,

 

Jerry

 

"Lets not be too hard on Joop. At least he doesn't start any threads (in English at least), nor does he post a photo" of himself." :confused:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-kundenforum/28205-leica-preise-im-freien-fall.html

[hankg]

 

- These new lenses are 'cost cutting' lenses!

 

- Mechanical they will probably not have the qualitiy of the 'older' types!

 

- You cannot make a lens like the Summarit-M 90/2,5 for the lower price of a Elmarit 90/2,8 M with the same optical and mechanical quality!

 

Cost cutting is used here as a dirty word. If we are talking about cost cutting through innovating the manufacturing process it's a good thing and it can actually increase quality. Modern car engines properly done don't need constant fiddling and tuning and are cheaper, safer, provide better performance and are more reliable then the old 'hand built' engines.

 

Leica should no more be using 1950's manufacturing processes then they should be using 1950's optical formulas. Let's hope the speculation about new manufacturing processes is true.

[gberger]

In retrospect, I sorta' cringe at all of the pronouncements, predictions, prognostications, and positive statements about why these lenses are being produced, and more important, their probable characteristics and performance.

 

As an ancient Air Force pilot, I learned, long ago, to never trust the manufacturer's and experimental test pilots' writeups on an aircraft until I strapped it on, took it into the blue, and took it through its maximum capabilities myself - - and then learned where it could get me into trouble.

 

Lenses aren't aircraft, but, IMHO, the principle is the same.

[earleygallery]

It' s my sense of humor about the Chinese factory! I call it irony, isn't it...............?

You don't like it? OK my waste of time for you...

 

On the other statements you can give your reaction or not, like others do, see here before!

 

- These new lenses are 'cost cutting' lenses!

 

- Mechanical they will probably not have the qualitiy of the 'older' types!

 

- You cannot make a lens like the Summarit-M 90/2,5 for the lower price of a Elmarit 90/2,8 M with the same optical and mechanical quality!

 

OK, I'll have my go at some 'Joopisms'

 

The lenses are not 'cost cutting' lenses. They are most expensive for Leica to produce due to new tooling etc but are however less expensive retail than the Summicron range for example.

 

Mechanically they will be superior in every respect.

 

You CAN make a lens like the Summarit 90/2.5 with the same optical and mechanical quality of an Elmarit - it is in fact superior in every respect.

[Joop van Heijgen]

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OK, I'll have my go at some 'Joopisms'

 

The lenses are not 'cost cutting' lenses. They are most expensive for Leica to produce due to new tooling etc but are however less expensive retail than the Summicron range for example.

 

Mechanically they will be superior in every respect.

 

You CAN make a lens like the Summarit 90/2.5 with the same optical and mechanical quality of an Elmarit - it is in fact superior in every respect.

 

 

"They are most expensive for Leica to produce due to new tooling etc but are however less expensive retail than the Summicron range for example."

 

Erwin Puts said about this:

 

"Apart form the different assembly and manufacturing technology, Summicron lenses have a long list of high-end properties like apochromatic correction, aspherical surfaces, exotic glass types, floating elements, and can focus more closely. Build quality is also a notch better and the selection of materials is different to ensure durability and longevity and accuracy under all conditions. Here the Summarit line has to prove itself over time."

 

 

 

 

(40) Leica Summarit-M lenses | Photography and image capture: the Leica technique and philosophy by Erwin Puts | Erwin Puts

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I would say the word cost cutting is the wrong word here. What leica has been able to do is come up with some optical designs that are new and with some high end techniques in the building of these lenses are able to save some money in the process of building them and in the process pass the savings onto the end users plus there margins maybe be very small here and are counting on quantity over there life span to get the needed margins for them. It just maybe a completely different approach on how they are looking at this line of lenses. I would say by the end of October we will start seeing images from them that can give us some idea on there quality of look.

[Lucklik]

I don't understand why still nobody talks about the fingerprint of the Summarits.

(or have I missed some posts?)

Like I said in an earlier post proofs can be downloaded at

Leica Camera AG - Downloads

I don't like the bokeh of the 90mm but I would like to hear other opinions.

rgs

 

Luc

[sdai]

I don't understand why still nobody talks about the fingerprint of the Summarits.

 

I can only speak for myself but, I don't see a fingerprint in any of those shots ... clear and sharp are all that I can say about it.

[earleygallery]

Puts also says "These lenses are optimized for manual focusing."

 

Phew, that's a relief then, they didn't make them without focussing rings.

[rosuna]

I have read this good analysis of the Summarits at Rangefinderforum.com

 

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45402

 

Well, there has been a lot said about the quality difference between Summicron and Summarit lenses without anybody here (I assume) having used a Summarit lens.

 

Let's have a more technical approach to it, based on the technical data which is already available:

Generally, as Mr. Puts reports, there is a difference of about 1000 to 1500 € per lens between Summicron and Summarit. Now, where could this difference come from?

 

1) The difference in max. aperture

The half stop difference between f2 and f2.5 might not seem to be much. But what is the difference for the lensmaker? Well if you look at the 35mm lenses: both have the same width (about 53mm) and share the same filter size (E39). This means, both have to have about the same size of entrance lens. But the difference between f2 and f2.5 means, that more of the summicron lens will be used than of the summarit lens. Also, the theoretical resolution of a f2 lens is higher than that of a f2.5 lens.

This results in more effort for polishing the summicron lenses, especially up to the border. It is much easier (and cost effective) to reach high quality polishing in the centre of a lens than at its border.

This also leads to a higher yield of the polishing process, as little scratches or inclusions in the glass have a higher probability of not being in the optical path. Also, straylight reduction is much easier, since straylight occurs mostly due to reflexes on the outer diameter of the lenses. A smaller aperture might simply block some of the straylight. Guess why Leica advertises the Summarits with the improved straylight reduction capabilities?

 

2) The lack of an asphere lens

Asphere lenses are normally made one after another: either by blank pressing a near-liquid glass bubble and final fine polishing or by dedicated computer controlled polishing of a spherical surface. Spherical lenses -- as are being used in the summarits -- can be manufactured in the classical way, i.e. by putting many lenses on one big carrier and polishing them altogether.

 

3) There is -- supposedly -- no chrome version

Leica M lenses use different materials for chrome (brass) and black versions (aluminium). This makes their parts very expensive since lower volumes can be produced, different mechanical designs are needed to accomodate the different material properties, etc.

 

4) More common parts

There are supposedly very little common parts used for the traditional Leica lenses. If one can use the same part on more lenses, the part gets much cheaper, i.e. the lens can get cheaper as well

 

5) Less exotic glass types

Glass manufacturers do offer quite a number of different glass type. For a lensmaker, one should have glasses with very high and very low refractive index in one lens, in order to make for a compact and elegant design. The more extreme the lens design, the more likely an exotic glass type will be used.

However, not all glass types are equally available. Some are made only every couple of years, Some are even discontinued, if the demand is too little. This happens quite often. In fact, the number of glass types at Schott (a major glass manufacturer) was significantly higher 10 or 20 years ago. Such a discontinuation will mean the end for specific lens designs or -- as most likely is the case for the Noctilux lens -- lead to an enormous price increase if the manufacturer needs to store the glass for future demand.

 

6) Less add ons

Well currently this is mostly speculation, but I would guess one needs to buy the lens hood separately for the Summarits. Already the lens pouch (velours) is less expensive than for the Summicrons (leather bag).

 

7) Less profit per lens

Well, I think it is evident that Leica wants to sell more and make the profit from the higher number of lenses sold.

 

 

OK. That was a long list. I tried to assess the technical reasons for the price difference between Summarit and Summicron lenses on the data which is already available and on my knowledge on how lenses are being made. I do not want to sound like another "I-know-it-all" but what are your comments on to this?

 

Greetings,

 

MichaelM7

[Joop van Heijgen]

A more technical approach:

 

Originally Posted by MichaelM7

1) The difference in max. aperture

2) The lack of an asphere lens

3) There is -- supposedly -- no chrome version

4) More common parts

5) Less exotic glass types

6) Less add ons

7) Less profit per lens

 

A social economic approach according to MichalM7: ( http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45402 )

 

"I would say manual assembly of the lenses is more expensive than automatically polishing a lot of lenses at the same time, where only one or two people could operate such a machine.

So there would be more to be saved if they outsourced assembly of the lenses to a country with cheaper labor."

[marknorton]

But you then get to a situation, ultimately, where a country makes nothing and economic activity consists of flipping hamburgers and selling each other life insurance. Such is the state of manufacturing in the UK.

 

I applaud Leica for keeping their manufacturing base in Germany, it would be oh-so-easy to decamp to the Far East, as Zeiss have done for these types of lenses, and churn them out there. I love visiting German manufacturing plants where there is a real sense of purpose and huge productivity. Mercedes-Benz in Bremen and Untertuerkheim are a wonder - just incredible.

 

It looks to me like Leica have invested in new production methods to keep the cost of the Summarits down and so provide meaningful competition to Zeiss and CV. Good for them.

 

I don't understand why you have it in for Leica so much. The Netherlands' track record is hardly exemplary. Philips, once one of the world's largest electronics companies, has retreated up the food chain to high profit margin products, sold out on semiconductors, so hardly an example to shout from the roof-tops about.

[hankg]

 

I applaud Leica for keeping their manufacturing base in Germany

 

I remember reading in an early press release from the new management their commitment to Leica's employees. That was included as one of the main tenents of their plans. Good for them. Here in the US the employees would have been tossed, then they would have put the company in bankrupcy to get out of any pension obligations before reorganizing and shipping manufacturing to China.

[rosuna]

The problem of outsourcing is the quality control. A random sample based system instead of careful testing of all the units during the assembly process?

 

Leica was a great optimizer of well-known designs. For instance, the Summicron-M 50mm. I hope they did the same with the new Summarits...

[rosuna]

... Erwin Puts about the Zeiss Biogon f/2.8:

 

The performance of this lens warrants a somewhat wider perspective on lens design. Zeiss demonstrates that it is possible to improve on first-class lenses while using conventional designs and without elevating the cost to astronomical heights. Leica has lived for a long period in an ivory tower, supported by a loyal following of collectors who were more interested in the safety of their investments than in the quality of the images that could be produced with Leica equipment. The digital tsunami has at last reached the parapet of the Leica fortress and it is evident that Leica must become a more market-oriented company.

 

http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c020.html

 

Is Leica following a similar strategy?