larry Posted August 1, 2007 Share #21 Posted August 1, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Every time I think of what improvements might be made to the M8, I look at the image quality I'm getting and the urge to change it goes away. Maybe an M9 in a few years will satisfy the need. Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 1, 2007 Posted August 1, 2007 Hi larry, Take a look here Modification Discussion Group. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wparsonsgisnet Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share #22 Posted August 1, 2007 Based on the responses here, it appears that Leica is delivering just the right things at the right time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 1, 2007 Share #23 Posted August 1, 2007 Every time I think of what improvements might be made to the M8, I look at the image quality I'm getting and the urge to change it goes away. My point exactly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 1, 2007 Share #24 Posted August 1, 2007 There're surely many things can be improved ... the truth is that the image quality of the M8 has largely benefited from the peerless Leica optics. Given the same quality glass, I've no doubt that Canon, Nikon or Sony will just do as good "if" not better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 2, 2007 Share #25 Posted August 2, 2007 One of the issues is the diversity of new ideas.... [E]ven the most popular [suggested improvement] came from just 5 users which is the only one I intend to implement. This is the problem with committee designs, isn't it? So many suggestions with so little agreement. Based on the responses here, it appears that Leica is delivering just the right things at the right time. As appealing as Mark's idea of a D.I.Y. M8 is in concept, I think Leica is moving solidly in the right direction. We outsiders have one other disadvantage: We are asking, "What improvements would I like to see made to my M8?" As the results of Mark's customer survey show, and as Lee said in the LFI interview, direct user input is seldom productive. As I recall, Lee said something like, "If we had asked users of the screw-mount cameras what they wanted, we would never have developed the M3." Leica seems to be able to innovate and surprise much better than we her customers can command useful changes. The idea of paying for a change to be put at the top of a list also seems unfair and dangerous. A hard-to-program change might get catapulted to high priority by strong paid demand, while several easier-to-achieve modules (which might actually might be of more benefit in the long run) had to wait for implementation. Add to these points the questions Luigi raised about proprietary information and internal organization, and I think M8 updates must remain in Leica's hands. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattinson Posted August 2, 2007 Share #26 Posted August 2, 2007 As the results of Mark's customer survey show, and as Lee said in the LFI interview, direct user input is seldom productive. As I recall, Lee said something like, "If we had asked users of the screw-mount cameras what they wanted, we would never have developed the M3." --HC And Lee is correct, however it's the wrong question. You should never ask your users what they want you to build - you should ask them what they want to do, then figure out what to build in order to facilitate that. (Unless of couse they know your job better than you do - in which case you should hire them). Even better to not only ask, but to observe how they actually use your product and refine your design based on that observation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 2, 2007 Share #27 Posted August 2, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) ... Given the same quality glass, I've no doubt that Canon, Nikon or Sony will just do as good "if" not better. Quality of Leica lenses is a given, but IMHO, Simon, once again you're denying the engineering innovations it took to bring the M8 to fruition--sensor tailored to Leica's lens range and with radially offset collector lenses; elimination of low-pass filter; radically new implementation of DNG; larger color space than other cameras; etc. The other brands have access to the same lens design tools as Leica, yet even with a smaller sensor, the M8 performs as well or better. There's a lot more to it than just the lenses. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 2, 2007 Share #28 Posted August 2, 2007 Even better to not only ask, but to observe how they actually use your product and refine your design based on that observation. David-- You've put concisely what was lurking beneath the surface of my feeling that this well-intended modifications thread really can't have much positive outcome. Luigi and others have raised the question of where and whether we fit into the design pipeline. Those questions have to be answered before organizing for modifications. This forum is a great place for expertise and debugging, and for explaining observed weaknesses. But as you said, actual modifications must finally come from observation and experience. And Larry put the concept even more directly above: Every time I think of what improvements might be made to the M8, I look at the image quality I'm getting and the urge to change it goes away. Maybe an M9 in a few years will satisfy the need. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 2, 2007 Share #29 Posted August 2, 2007 Quality of Leica lenses is a given, but IMHO, Simon, once again you're denying the engineering innovations it took to bring the M8 to fruition--sensor tailored to Leica's lens range and with radially offset collector lenses; elimination of low-pass filter; radically new implementation of DNG; larger color space than other cameras; etc. The other brands have access to the same lens design tools as Leica, yet even with a smaller sensor, the M8 performs as well or better. There's a lot more to it than just the lenses. Howard, you could do a google before you post ... offset microlens design is nothing fancy nothing new, there were patents regarding offset microlens solid state imager designs registered as early as in the 1990s. Leica/Kodak just happened to find a use of it on the M8. LOL Elimination of low pass filter? BIG DEAL ... you think those semiconductor companies are absolutely crazy to spend that amount of money in R&D just to get something useless? think twice. Radically new implementation of DNG, that's true ... and humourous. Larger color space than anyone else ... bingo, purple is the new black. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 2, 2007 Share #30 Posted August 2, 2007 Simon-- I personally think your arguments lack both logic and persuasiveness. What other sensor has these offset collector lenses? I think none. Ergo, new. "you think those semiconductor companies are absolutely crazy to spend that amount of money in R&D just to get something useless?" What? No logic there at all. Like medium format cameras, the M8 has no AA filter; the DMR had one in software only. Isn't the M8 the only miniature format camera not to have one? And your answer is, "Well yes, others have it, so the M8 must be wrong." Total non sequitur. I mentioned innovation; and when you can't (to your mind) say something isn't innovative, you say it's "humorous." OK, it's funny that someone innovates. ¿¿¿¿ Ho Ho. ???? Largest color space around, and you name a problem that has been fixed. I begin to understand why you post so many unfounded stories. You can't find logic to support your claims, and so prefer to list them as rumors. Sorry, I don't mean to offend. But your responses obviously aren't intended to be taken seriously. At first I thought you might be serious about some of your contentions, but I see that's not the case. You just want to state your opinion with a nebulous basis and refuse to attempt to support it. I was taken in. Respectfully, --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 2, 2007 Share #31 Posted August 2, 2007 How about trying to keep one thread here out of the "slanging match pit"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted August 2, 2007 Share #32 Posted August 2, 2007 What other sensor has these offset collector lenses? I think none. Not wanting to spoil a good flame war with facts but just about every single DSLR from any major manufacturer had had microlenses for many years now. E.g. see Nikon DSLR (Digital Camera) Comparison by Thom Hogan for older Nikons Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted August 2, 2007 Share #33 Posted August 2, 2007 Sandy, I don't know about the truth of it, but the emphasis was on "offset". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 2, 2007 Share #34 Posted August 2, 2007 Presumably since they asked Guy to produce a laundry list, Leica are not simply going to chuckle heartily, put it in the low level circular filing system and go on their own merry way. Therefore since we assume they are going to be, within reason, responsive to customer requests, then this thread has a good reason to exist. In the extremely unlikely event we could reach a consensus on sensible mods and a methodology to either provide them or sell them, I can see no logical argument against it either from customers or Leica. As I posted above, my main priority would be ISO and EV on the arrows. I can fully sympathise with those who would not be prepared to pay for this, as it should have been there from day one. However if it comes to practicality and would I be prepared to pay a modest sum to have it in the very near future, the answer is yes. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 2, 2007 Share #35 Posted August 2, 2007 Wilson, I think the problem is in the consensus part. Many people will have differing priorities and see some mods as more important than others - I can live with the current ISO change as it's only a quick double press and I don't find it a problem, the EV change I find fiddly for example. It's a bit like the old adage that most people only use 5% of Photoshop;s functionality. The problem is we don't all use the same 5% <grin>. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted August 2, 2007 Share #36 Posted August 2, 2007 Based on the responses here, it appears that Leica is delivering just the right things at the right time. Bill, your kidding, right? The whole reason this thread, all those relating to laundry list issues and the 1.107 FW exist is precisely because Leica fell short at launch, and havnt caught up yet. Yes I like the IQ I get from my M8, but that doesnt alter the fact that, for me, it is a frustrating, sometimes infuriating, device, with a clunky and agricultural digital interface and IR related problems unless you pay Leica to fix their IR sensitivity mistake (ie get your lenses coded). Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted August 2, 2007 Share #37 Posted August 2, 2007 Sandy, I don't know about the truth of it, but the emphasis was on "offset". Carsten, My understanding is later generation Nikons at least have offset microlenses. Canon's probably not - don't know for sure. The M8 is certainly unique in the degree of offset, however. Regards, Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapp Posted August 2, 2007 Share #38 Posted August 2, 2007 6. These mods would naturally be released in a standard firmware version -- to all M8 owners, at no cost. This means that the members of this group might be paying for convenience that all enjoy. Regards to all, Typically, people would buy Leica shares to sit in board meetings and discuss new features Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share #39 Posted August 2, 2007 Bill,your kidding, right? The whole reason this thread, all those relating to laundry list issues and the 1.107 FW exist is precisely because Leica fell short at launch, and havnt caught up yet. Yes I like the IQ I get from my M8, but that doesnt alter the fact that, for me, it is a frustrating, sometimes infuriating, device, with a clunky and agricultural digital interface and IR related problems unless you pay Leica to fix their IR sensitivity mistake (ie get your lenses coded). Guy In sales jargon, it's called a "closed probe," a question intended to move the other party off the pot. Since Guy has collected the requests perhaps he'd like to post in this thread and list what's out there. We could argue about what we think is the most important. I will take on the task of collating the votes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 2, 2007 Share #40 Posted August 2, 2007 What other sensor has these offset collector lenses? I think none. Ergo, new. That's because nobody else needs it ... pretty much modern SLR lenses won't vignette that bad as a Leica would do on the rangefinder. Sorry, I don't mean to offend. But your responses obviously aren't intended to be taken seriously. Of course, if I were serious ... now I would be writing to the CEO of Leica already. LOL Have a good day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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