wparsonsgisnet Posted August 1, 2007 Share #1 Posted August 1, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am proposing that we start a sub-group specifically to discuss modifications to the M8, as follows: 1. Mods should be a. sensible (we can ignore requests for things that are not there, like fast, wide, primes) b. achievable in firmware changes (in our opinion) c. of mutual value to a large group of us d. prioritized by us 2. It may be possible to "vote" with our pocketbooks. For example, it might be possible to initiate a subscription membership where we pay Leica to make changes that we want, in a high-priority fashion. An example: to provide an option in the menu system to save images as 16-bit, uncompressed dng's. 3. I propose a sticky thread or separate subforum for this purpose -- and so far just for the M8. 4. This would involve participatory discussion and compromise. 5. I, for one, am willing to pay for mods that I would like to see, if it means getting them sooner. One of these is 16-big dng's. 6. These mods would naturally be released in a standard firmware version -- to all M8 owners, at no cost. This means that the members of this group might be paying for convenience that all enjoy. I invite your responses. Regards to all, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 1, 2007 Posted August 1, 2007 Hi wparsonsgisnet, Take a look here Modification Discussion Group. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
sdai Posted August 1, 2007 Share #2 Posted August 1, 2007 I fully support your idea, Bill. But more specifically to the 16-bit DNG thing, I don't think it's doable unless Leica would like to engage a hardware mod as well. DSP horsepower, channel throughput, on board memory size ... these are all big question marks. As one of the noise makers from the very beginning, you see that I'm not mentioning about this anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted August 1, 2007 Share #3 Posted August 1, 2007 I guess the forum owner and the mods can do what they like but I see no reason to have another M8 forum for what you are suggesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 1, 2007 Share #4 Posted August 1, 2007 Bill, you could be quite easily talking about thousands of dollars per mod. It isn't going to happen. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted August 1, 2007 Ed, I originally proposed a sticky thread, but then thot that this might be controversial enuf to be segregated. All suggestions welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share #6 Posted August 1, 2007 Simon, I am really sorry to hear that you think 16-bit is not doable. I figured a firmware change that would cost us time, buffer space, and disk space. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 1, 2007 Share #7 Posted August 1, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Bill, you can take a look at those chips in Mark's pictures from his Anatomy thread, something needs a surgery to archive this 16-bit thing I believe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted August 1, 2007 Share #8 Posted August 1, 2007 Well I've been plugging for a few software improvements and I think I can add a few more. Most of us can imagine some hardware things too; but the problem is that some of us just do not have an inkling about what is doable, or reasonable, or not. As for excluding things like prime wide angles, I remember that in the LFI interview Steven Lee said that when he saw the enthusiasm at Photokina he wondered if Leica hadn't offered the public too little in the way of lenses for the M8 introduction. I think hardware suggestions should be allowed too. After all, there will be an M9 sometime in the future – even if I will have to shoot it from a wheelchair. And in both cases we should be careful to discuss just why some of the dreams wouldn't come true – or had better not come true! And let us remember how one of the most renowned physicists of the day proved in 1902 that an aircraft heavier than air would never be able to fly ... The old man from the Age of Film Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted August 1, 2007 Share #9 Posted August 1, 2007 Well to be totally honest I do not want to pay for any new features. I think there should be a option to have 16 (really 12) bit files and the compressed 8 bit files we now have. I think there should be a easier way to adjust the ISO. I want better AWB as that is just about all I use for my everyday shooting. If I know I'll be someplace for a series of shots that has the same lighting then I will set the WB. But most of the time I could be insde, outside, in this or that type of lighting and need the AWB to be more accurate and more consistent from shot to shot in the same lighting. These things I have listed should be included with a $5000 camera. All the other stuff, whatever it is, at this point, doesn't really interest me and I surely would not pay extra to have any of it, including my list above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share #10 Posted August 1, 2007 Ed, I certainly agree that the AWB should be correct. I'm expecting to see this, but as I shoot raw I don't have a severe itch. With regard to 16-bit and iso stuff, I knew before the camera arrived that these things would be as they are. I'd like 'em, too. In general: It may be that Leica is interested in facilitating things that can be proved to be popular. If (some) users are willing to vote with their wallets -- and it's not clear that this is so -- then some users might want to have a way to (1) work together to prioritize, and (2) to arrange for some funding. Don't all our governments work this way? Let's take the 16-bit option: 1. Leica would need to let a group like this know that it is possible. 2. Leica might even price it. 3. The group would have to agree that it was a top priority, and 4. The group would have to muster the necessary funds. 5. I would expect a funded arrangement to have a deliverable As I have described it, such a group would be funding modifications that all other users would enjoy at no cost. The terms that come to mind are: 1. Noblesse Oblige (sorry, don't know the German equivalent) 2. Professional requirements 3. Man I really want this xxxxx 4. These users are really crazy. 5. Gee, it we can have x for $y, maybe I'll contribute y/100. I have no drum to beat or bone to pick with regard to the M8. I am exceedingly pleased that Leica is doing well: (backorders, lots of sales, inability to deliver many things). There is no other company in the world like Leica. There ARE lots of boutique companies but none that makes a first-level product that is a tool for laymen and artists. This camera has changed my photography and enhanced my abilities and images many-fold. It's an extremely valuable part of my life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth_c Posted August 1, 2007 Share #11 Posted August 1, 2007 I'm HONESTLY not trying to start an argument and maybe I simply haven't understood your intent but... Are we talking about fixes and builds that are generally agreed to improve the usabillity (i.e. ISO setting easier to access) or are you looking for mods above and beyond the general workable level of the camera, nice to haves rather than needed in order to work (i.e.16Bit)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted August 1, 2007 Share #12 Posted August 1, 2007 Bill, the idea is appealing but, imho, terribly difficult to execute : - The new subforum has to be heavily managed to get a solid set of requests. - When speaking of "Modifications" to M8, a clear line has to be drawn : mods that can be retrofitted into our current M8s ? Mods for an envisioned M8-2 ? Mods that can bring de facto to a M9 ? - To draw that line,, Mark Norton (splendid) disassembly is not sufficient... an involvment of Leica designers is mandatory... do they would like to do it ? This, for not to be a dumbs dialog, would require they disclose something about their future development directions (that, hope, are already drawn) ... maybe some of them would like to do, but...this is a corporate isuue: they MUST NOT do it... it's Compnay public rel. dept. that has the role, time to time, to tell something about... - The idea of getting money into it, can be appealing (to someone) but is definitely a very very strange proposition for Leica Co. : they are trying to be a self-sufficient high profile consumer product company... is at all unusual for such companies, even if rather little, to deal of customers partially financed developments ... that is a business for companies in the specialty tailored tech products... (a someway similar, unlucky tentative was made by Pignons-Alpa cameras decades ago...). I think if this idea would be brought at Leica management, it even could translate into "let's plan a dedicated SHARE emission reserved to M8 customers...with something attractive for them...".(I know Italian wine companies that made similar moves towards their loyal customers:)) But of course, if we speak only about FUTURE FIRMWARE CONTENT... apart the money issue I agree that a specific "like to have" subforum to be managed (consolidation of ideas, n° of requestors, priorities...) , can be envisioned with no difficulty (personally, I wouldn't partecipate... like M8 as is... something good in future firmware release ? So better..I'll see...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 1, 2007 Share #13 Posted August 1, 2007 Haven't we got enough sub-forums? Have you any idea how much work goes into keeping the threads tidy on this forum as it is? Why not just put all your ideas into one thread? It seems to me, that, judging by the posts on this forum, M8 ownership is more trouble than it's worth. At least, that's the impression I get. I am sure this is not the case... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted August 1, 2007 Share #14 Posted August 1, 2007 Bill, wasnt this subject done to death when the laundry list was being drawn up? There were lots of suggestions then, not only for obvious fixes but also for new features (of course the distinction between those things depends on your point of view!). Wouldnt it be better to collect suggestions for the M9? not lenses, but just the camera, whats good about the M8 and should be carried forward, and what else should be added? Just lets not get into one of those 16bit debates again.... Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
egibaud Posted August 1, 2007 Share #15 Posted August 1, 2007 It is maybe not too logical to have two M8 flavour... maybe not payable and a mess for Leica... not sure. Maybe it would be more logical to have a M9 wish list. So we see in 2 or 3 year time an M9 that solves the M8 problems. So when it can be firmware fixed, they can put it in the M8 and when it is a hardware solution, then they work on it for a future M9 Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george + Posted August 1, 2007 Share #16 Posted August 1, 2007 I have no problem with a list and place of debate but can't help but wonder how we might keep any sort of order with so many individual requests. On a different level we must estimate what this might cost. You may or may not agree that we are talking of an additional and ongoing four person professional effort to look at custom enhancements icluding evaluations/estimation/design/coding/testing/release control and the like. (and this is as wild a guess as any). Now at about $250,000 all told per such a pro per year we are talking about a million bucks a year. Divide this into, say 1,000 willing enthusiasts that is $1,000 per enthusiasts per year. Is this realistic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 1, 2007 Share #17 Posted August 1, 2007 Divide this into, say 1,000 willing enthusiasts that is $1,000 per enthusiasts per year. Is this realistic? I think you'll find that's a million dollars... Are you seriously proposing that you can get 1,000 users to subscribe $1,000 dollars each to allow 4 people to play around with someone else's firmware for a camera that others claim to be amongst the best digital cameras in the world? Has the M8 community all lost the plot? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george + Posted August 1, 2007 Share #18 Posted August 1, 2007 . . . Are you seriously proposing that you can get 1,000 users to subscribe $1,000 dollars each to allow 4 people to play around with someone else's firmware for a camera that others claim to be amongst the best digital cameras in the world? Yes Andy, it is a million dollars = 4 x 250,000. That's how I came to the number. No, I am not proposing to spend this money and yes, I am enjoying my M8 too. But as an ex-tekkie (before I became a suit and retired later) I can not help but think of the possibilities of privately exchanged code modifications. Mouth-watering. Hmmmmm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 1, 2007 Share #19 Posted August 1, 2007 Bill's suggestion is a different slant to my own a few days ago where I suggested Leica make an API (programming interface) available so that "a la carte" firmware requirements could be implemented by those with the skills and sold to the owning community on a commercial basis. One of the issues is the diversity of new ideas. My own experience is that there's always a long tail of off-the-wall requirements and you have to cut-off somewhere. I recently polled 250 of my own users about what they would like to see in what I do and they came up with 85 new requirements. Of those, 75 came from just one user and even the most popular came from just 5 users which is the only one I intend to implement. It's tough to think Leica would devote scarce development resources to implementing such ideas themselves. They have to focus them instead on driving the product line forwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 1, 2007 Share #20 Posted August 1, 2007 I think Leica could use some help from Panasonic ... given that they have a "contract" between each other. Although I don't like Panasonic's digital cameras, I do think they certainly know more about the firmware stuff than Leica does ... How difficult is sending one Leica engineer to Osaka or ... flying one Panasonic engineer to Frankfurt? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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