What's this in the viewfinder?

[Frankie-p]

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Hello everyone. I purchased my first Leica this week, an m4p in chrome. Love it so far.

Last night I noticed something in the viewfinder only by shining a light through it and looking at if from the front of the camera. Link below to a couple of pictures. This is not visible when using the viewfinder at all or during regular use at all. Can someone tell me what it is? Is it easily repairable in case it gets worst?

https://imgur.com/a/OmRCyhc

https://imgur.com/a/oSwDGDu

Thanks

Francesco

[jaapv]

The only thing I can see is a reflection of the frameline mask.

[ianman]

It would help if you could highlight whatever it is that is bothering you.

[pico]

If you are referring to the box-like lines, they are normal. Completely cover the window next to the viewfinder and they will disappear or diminish.

[Frankie-p]

Sorry for not making this clear.

I cropped the image.

https://imgur.com/a/v1njcmu

I'm referring to those brownish "stains" on the edges of the 45 degrees glass. Looks like rust.. I'm pretty sure that's not normal...

 

[jaapv]

Again, probably another reflection, this time of a prism surface. A viewfinder is not a lens. Shining bright lights through is not helpful for finding flaws, as the light paths are full of angled optical elements reflecting light in unexpected ways. If it is not visible in normal use, it would not appear to be something to worry about.

[Frankie-p]

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Thanks for the feedback. I agree that since it's not visible during regular use it's nothing to worry about. But it's definitely some kind of smudge.. And I was curious if anyone knew what It was.  It doesn't change when viewing from different angles. It was just hard to take a picture of it.

[adan]

Could be incipient separation along the seam between the two glass wedges that reflect the secondary RF image and framelines to your eye in sync with the main viewfinder view.

Or it could be tarnishing of the semi-silvered reflective layer (which would also imply some separation, to give atmospheric gases access to the seam and cause the tarnishing). Or it could be just aging of the cement itself that's causing a color/opacity change.

Here's another relevant imgur image from 3 years ago - not sure how its diagnosis went: https://imgur.com/r/Leica/bsVblgO

And another image, from 15 years ago (M6): https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/viewfinder-decementing-separating-or-what.113967/

Note: M2/3 finders used a different cement (purified pine-tree sap) that looks more "crackly" and silvery when it is separating - by the M4-P era, it should be a more modern UV-cured chemical cement.

At some point, if the seam pops loose completely, the whole viewfinder will go black and need replacement (or repair/recementing - but that is trickier; requires someone with necessary materials and equipment - although some brave individuals with appropriate tools have attempted their own, with mixed results). Could be never, could be after 10 years of happy use, could be tomorrow.

I might send the images to Leica, and ask 1) their opinion, 2) what the repair options would be today, if needed (Can they recement yours? Can a modern MP finder replace a separated M4-P finder?).

I recently sent Leica a 1980s (M4-P-era) 28mm lens that had separation - and they said "no more parts - unrepairable!" But that was a specific lens from a specific era. The finders may be more universally interchangeable.

 

[Frankie-p]

Hi Adan, thank you so much for the very thorough and insightful response.

After your response I decided that it is worth having someone take a look at it. The defect I'm seeing in the pictures and by how you describe it is very much like what I see on mine. There's a Leica repair center close to where I live.

I will definitely follow your advice about contacting Leica directly.

With that said I might just continue using it until it fails. After all it doesn't impact normal use.

Thanks again!

Francesco

[Zhe]

I've seen more than 5 cases similar to yours, typically in M4-2, M4-p and M6's vidwfiner. The orange area is probably due to sliver coating oxidation, and is different from what happens in M3's seperation. A reslivering work costs about £250, cameraworks-uk can handle it, but currently the leading time is more than half year. 

Someone said you can still use the rangefinder/viewfinder even though it becomes all orange, but I haven't find any other thread to confirm that.

 

[Frankie-p]

Just a quick follow up for future reference in case someone will experience the same problem. I contacted Leica directly and this is what one of their kind Employees from Customer Support had to say:

 

Quote

As far as I see from the pictures the view-finder has obviously a balsam fraction. This may have been caused by environment influences e.g. rapid changes of cold and warm climate, impact damage or simple ravages of time. Maybe all facts came together. But this phenomena will get worse, the V/F will get slurry over the time. The V/F have to be replaced here in our workshop.

 

This was something i should've caught upon purchase.... The shop does have a warranty on "un-seen damages", meaning something not visible from external inspection like sticking curtains or mechanical defects that only arise during use. With that said, would you guys go back and complain to the seller? Or would you consider it as part of the purchase? I paid 1200 euros for it. I don't know the market well enough to understand if the level of the price is also taking this balsam fraction into consideration. 

Thanks,

Francesco

[pedaes]

You have nothing to loose by going back shop- and you have the benefit of the Leica opinion. Can't see the seller repairing, so best would be a full refund, second a contribution to repair.If you paid by credit card you may have some options through the card company. Good luck!

Edited August 21, 2019 by pedaes

[plaidshirts]

1 hour ago, Frankie-p said:

Just a quick follow up for future reference in case someone will experience the same problem. I contacted Leica directly and this is what one of their kind Employees from Customer Support had to say:

 

 

This was something i should've caught upon purchase.... The shop does have a warranty on "un-seen damages", meaning something not visible from external inspection like sticking curtains or mechanical defects that only arise during use. With that said, would you guys go back and complain to the seller? Or would you consider it as part of the purchase? I paid 1200 euros for it. I don't know the market well enough to understand if the level of the price is also taking this balsam fraction into consideration. 

Thanks,

Francesco

I would definitely complain to the seller. The market fluctuates so I can't definitively say if that's a good deal or not but Sherry Krauter sells black M4-Ps in the $700-$1000 range. The chrome ones like yours are pricier of course.

[fishkid]

On 8/14/2019 at 11:11 PM, Zhe said:

I've seen more than 5 cases similar to yours, typically in M4-2, M4-p and M6's vidwfiner. The orange area is probably due to sliver coating oxidation, and is different from what happens in M3's seperation. A reslivering work costs about £250, cameraworks-uk can handle it, but currently the leading time is more than half year. 

Someone said you can still use the rangefinder/viewfinder even though it becomes all orange, but I haven't find any other thread to confirm that.

 

Mine is completely orange but dont seem to affect the viewfinder. Though when shined directly to a light (like a light bulb) you will see 3 light bulbs, 2 for the focusing patch and I think the 3rd one is ghosting because of this oxidation? But it does not seem to appear during normal shooting. These from an m5 and since there is no reputable techhnician in the Philippines for leicas for now. I think i'll just use and live with this until it affect shooting experience. 

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