75 Summilux vs 50/.95 Noctilux

[NRKstudio]

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To all the forum gurus:

Can’t make up my mind! I just ordered a 75 Lux and already have a 50/.95 Noctilux, which do I keep?  I like them both obviously.  This is the 2nd 75 Lux I’ve owned in a year (first one was sold as soon as I received my 50/.95).  

I mainly photograph family at home, my young son, wife, family events out and about, and the occasional party I am attending.  

The 75 Summilux lets you get a little closer perspective, no onion rings, deep colors.  Soft wide open look has the Leica glow in spades.  

But the Noctilux.95 has less cats eye effect on the bokeh (specular highlights), offers a little more environmental portraiture perspective, is sharper wide open and stopped down, and focuses a little easier for me.  

Also:  the Noct doesn’t have any focus shift at all.  Does the 75 Lux? 

If I keep the 75 Lux, I have a 50/1.2 Nokton VM which also has a really unique rendering wide open and plenty of glow at 1.2.  The 50/1.2 is much closer to a Noct than it is to a 50 Lux just fyi.  

Thanks for the help!!

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[Fedro]

I am not a guru, but I have both lenses and use the 50 more often, partially because I love 50mm lenses but also because I love the way it looks in B&W better, that is what I mostly shoot, and it is very special IMHO

the 75 is a great lens also but it is a focal length that I find a little odd to use, especially on a rangefinder (the lines in the viewfinder)

If you can keep both, I would. They are both magical in their own way

If you need to keep one I would keep 50 also because it is faster and for me more versatile  - and no I would not sell the Norton

[farnz]

Keep both if you can because they're such different lenses.  The 75 Summilux is a Mandler 'signature' lens that's full of character compared to the 50/0.95 Noctilux that's a Karbe triumph of desire over pessimism and is sharp and clinical whereas the 75 has a lovely soft chewy centre.  Different brushes for different canvasses.

Pete.

[james.liam]

Expensive brushes.

[Fedro]

2 hours ago, farnz said:

Keep both if you can because they're such different lenses.  The 75 Summilux is a Mandler 'signature' lens that's full of character compared to the 50/0.95 Noctilux that's a Karbe triumph of desire over pessimism and is sharp and clinical whereas the 75 has a lovely soft chewy centre.  Different brushes for different canvasses.

 Pete.

you surpassed yourself here - I would call it a wet dream, but I know I lack finesse

[james.liam]

Remember reading somewhere that Mandler thought of the 75 Summilux as his greatest triumph whilst Karbe loathes the lens. Would explain much about their contrary optical design aesthetics.

Edited July 27, 2019 by james.liam

[Cronilux]

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I don’t think you can compare them. I switched back from the 50/0.95 to a 50/1.0, cause the 0.95 was just too clean and added a 75 lux just a month ago. I would definitely keep the 75 over the 0.95 just for the sole reason of being able to get way closer (0.7m and 75mm vs 1m and 50mm) and having more character. 

[adan]

7 hours ago, NRKstudio said:

Also:  the Noct doesn’t have any focus shift at all.  Does the 75 Lux?

Mine does not - which is a bit weird, since it does have spherical aberration, which is the usual cause of FS. But I've tested it carefully, since it is a great focal length for technical work like copying paintings for my fellow artists at the gallery, or other studio work.

I think it may be relate to the other thing you mention - the cat's-eyes bokeh. The Summilux has a lot of vignetting (which is what crops the blur circles to cat's-eyes at f/1.4). And I think that reduces the total influence of the lens edge rays (they are less bright) even at wide apertures, such that the focused image from the central rays predominates regardless of aperture (and thus there is no shift at different apertures.)

The edge rays appear as "Leica Glow" at f/1.4 (edit: or sometimes "extra" DoF), rather than shifting the best-focus point.

I expect that is why Mandler was so proud of the lens - a true exercise in "managing" the aberrations to complement, and occasionally cancel out, each other.

As to the "either/or" question - I'm biased. I have not used a 50mm lens since about 1983. I always prefer a short tele (85s on Canonikons, 75 or 90 on Leicas) or a 35mm.

For me, these days, the 75 Summilux is the "do everything" lens between 21/28/35mm and 135mm - street, studio/still-life, concert/theater, technical, speed, portrait, "normal-ish." It's why I'm willing to put up with the weight and price - it ticks so many boxes. And with Mandler color rendering to boot.  

 

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by adan

[Musotographer]

I'm not really qualified to comment as I've never had a Noctilux and I probably never shall; but the Summilux 75 is one of my most favourite lenses. It is sublime for portraits.  I have just acquired one for the second time, not too ruinously, as I had to sell my first one due to a sticky financial situation a couple of years ago. I hope I never have to do so again. 

I'm not sure if mine has focus shift or not - wide open on the M10 I have to give it a tiny nudge anti-clockwise; on the Monochrom clockwise. Both cameras seem to be fine with all my other lenses.....

[pico]

53 minutes ago, adan said:

it does have spherical ç,

Spherical spherical is my one of my friends.

[NRKstudio]

Here’s a series of m10-p and 50/.95 vs 75 Lux (pictures captured close to Xmas time, when I sold my last 75 Lux.  Note the Xmas tree). 

Picture 1: 50/.95 at close to MFD, wide open

picture 2: 75 Summilux at close to MFD, wide open

picture 3: 75 Summilux at around 2 meters distance, to make the perspective similar to the 50/.95 at MFD. (this was to compare rendering at portrait distance, between the two lenses.  I chose this distance as the framing would allow a half body portrait style shot) 

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Edited July 28, 2019 by NRKstudio
Clarification

[NRKstudio]

2 hours ago, adan said:

Mine does not - which is a bit weird, since it does have spherical aberration, which is the usual cause of FS. But I've tested it carefully, since it is a great focal length for technical work like copying paintings for my fellow artists at the gallery, or other studio work.

I think it may be relate to the other thing you mention - the cat's-eyes bokeh. The Summilux has a lot of vignetting (which is what crops the blur circles to cat's-eyes at f/1.4). And I think that reduces the total influence of the lens edge rays (they are less bright) even at wide apertures, such that the focused image from the central rays predominates regardless of aperture (and thus there is no shift at different apertures.)

The edge rays appear as "Leica Glow" at f/1.4 (edit: or sometimes "extra" DoF), rather than shifting the best-focus point.

I expect that is why Mandler was so proud of the lens - a true exercise in "managing" the aberrations to complement, and occasionally cancel out, each other.

As to the "either/or" question - I'm biased. I have not used a 50mm lens since about 1983. I always prefer a short tele (85s on Canonikons, 75 or 90 on Leicas) or a 35mm.

For me, these days, the 75 Summilux is the "do everything" lens between 21/28/35mm and 135mm - street, studio/still-life, concert/theater, technical, speed, portrait, "normal-ish." It's why I'm willing to put up with the weight and price - it ticks so many boxes. And with Mandler color rendering to boot.  

 

 

Thanks for all the answers everyone!

Great advice here, wish I could keep them both!

Im leaning towards the 75 Lux.  I use a 50 APO for any other 50mm needs, and the 50/1.2 if I need some shallow dof 50mm shots.  Unique, sometimes vintage, and deeply colored shots are what moves me nowadays too.  

It was good to hear someone say though the 50 Noct is better with black and white, I would agree the extra contrast serves BW photography well with rich blacks and wide tones and gradation  

one extra wrench in the plans: I ordered the Voigtlander 75/1.5, which is coming out August 8th. If it’s anything like the 50/1.2 Nokton, I may have a serious, fast 75mm fill in.  Voigtlander is just killing it lately, making me question all my Leica gear choices.  

Can’t go too wrong either way though!  Tough to argue though if someone says they are going to ditch the 50 Noct and 75 Lux and save $15,000 for CV replacements.  

[Herr Barnack]

Keep both.

Selling off an M lens is the route to misery and regret (I have tread that hellish path more than once and am done with it).

[NRKstudio]

Also, I just saw that the 7artisans 75/1.25 M Mount is shipping out August 10th for $449.  I will have to post a test, going to order the 7A 75/1.25, CV 75/1.5, and will have the 75 Lux.  Winner takes all, I hope.  The CV for $1000 i predict will thump the $449 7a 75/1.25 though.  It may even top the 75 Lux.  

7artisans went from a relatively “budget” company to a now contender with their 28/1.4 M.  Philip Reeve tested it and concluded with very high marks.  Also, no CA, which plagued the Leica 28 Lux.  Maybe their 75/1.25 will have some legitimate optics.  I doubt it’ll compete with the Leica 75/1.25 though.  The Leica 75 Noctilux at f2.8 is sharper than the 50 APO at f2.8, according to Leicas published MTF.  

[NRKstudio]

7 hours ago, adan said:

Mine does not - which is a bit weird, since it does have spherical aberration, which is the usual cause of FS. But I've tested it carefully, since it is a great focal length for technical work like copying paintings for my fellow artists at the gallery, or other studio work.

I think it may be relate to the other thing you mention - the cat's-eyes bokeh. The Summilux has a lot of vignetting (which is what crops the blur circles to cat's-eyes at f/1.4). And I think that reduces the total influence of the lens edge rays (they are less bright) even at wide apertures, such that the focused image from the central rays predominates regardless of aperture (and thus there is no shift at different apertures.)

The edge rays appear as "Leica Glow" at f/1.4 (edit: or sometimes "extra" DoF), rather than shifting the best-focus point.

I expect that is why Mandler was so proud of the lens - a true exercise in "managing" the aberrations to complement, and occasionally cancel out, each other.

As to the "either/or" question - I'm biased. I have not used a 50mm lens since about 1983. I always prefer a short tele (85s on Canonikons, 75 or 90 on Leicas) or a 35mm.

For me, these days, the 75 Summilux is the "do everything" lens between 21/28/35mm and 135mm - street, studio/still-life, concert/theater, technical, speed, portrait, "normal-ish." It's why I'm willing to put up with the weight and price - it ticks so many boxes. And with Mandler color rendering to boot.  

 

 

Very interesting, I have no background in optics, so I can only say that the absence of focus shift is a very positive point for me.

the 50/1.2 Nokton also has quite a bit of spherical aberration wide open, and it also does not have have any focus shift.  The point of best focus persists through stopping down.  

 

Either way, I think I’m leaning to the 75 Lux.  Thank you all for the help! Any other views or interesting comparison points are greatly appreciated!

 

[didier]

I own and love both. Using one or the other just depends on my mood

I you shoot mainly portraits, the 75 lux is great.

I had mine CLA’d in Wetzlar when I bought a digital M. 

Though not as sharp wide open as the .95 Noct, it has a unique bokeh, kind of paintbrush rendering.

What I dislike most about the Noct is the colour fringing that occurs whenever you shoot with strong backlight.

I think you’ll be happy with the 50 apo + 75 lux combo. You’ll have the amazing clarity with the apo and the best portrait Lens with the 75

Didier

[NigelG]

8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Keep both.

Selling off an M lens is the route to misery and regret (I have tread that hellish path more than once and am done with it).

+1....

This thread is making me wonder whether I did the right thing selling my 75 lux..... but I often struggled with framing (maybe moreso as an inveterate 50mm user).

I’ve now given myself an alternative but somehow similar sell one/keep both + “painterly”/“sharper” to resolve which is the Noctilux f0.95 vs the f1.....🙄

[NRKstudio]

Been comparing both quite a bit at home.  One difference is: at portrait distance (or at least distance to capture half body shot of adult or whole body of toddler), the 50/.95 melts the background much more than the 75.  You must get much closer to the subject with the 50, thus de focusing  the background much more.  

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[mmradman]

On 7/28/2019 at 3:14 AM, NRKstudio said:

Also, I just saw that the 7artisans 75/1.25 M Mount is shipping out August 10th for $449.  I will have to post a test, going to order the 7A 75/1.25, CV 75/1.5, and will have the 75 Lux.  Winner takes all, I hope.  The CV for $1000 i predict will thump the $449 7a 75/1.25 though.  It may even top the 75 Lux.  

7artisans went from a relatively “budget” company to a now contender with their 28/1.4 M.  Philip Reeve tested it and concluded with very high marks.  Also, no CA, which plagued the Leica 28 Lux.  Maybe their 75/1.25 will have some legitimate optics.  I doubt it’ll compete with the Leica 75/1.25 though.  The Leica 75 Noctilux at f2.8 is sharper than the 50 APO at f2.8, according to Leicas published MTF.  

All this metrics of sharpness of one lens compared to other at comparable F stop is all well and good but on the test bench, it is mostly irrelevant in real shooting situations. Lens are chosen for general optical performance and that includes maximum F stop, physical size and cost of course.  I may be lusting over Noctilux 75mm as ultimate lump of M optics but not likely to get one, there are two reasons why not, size and cost, i have no doubt it is a top quality lens.

Talking of sensible high quality M lenses, APO Summicron 50mm is one of the smallest M lenses out there and optically it is stellar - not cheap, shopping around can be pleasant surprise.  Small size is the defining characteristic of the M system.  The legacy Summilux M 75mm is one of the bigger M lenses, again it is stellar in its own way at maximum F stop (not sharp) and also stopped down, ideal for close portrait but also landscape and general photography when using appropriate F stops.  

Talking of 3rd party offerings, it is interesting to see what Cosina/Voightlander is doing, they have good reputation for optical design and manufacture, being principal fabricator for Zeiss brand optics in Japan,  i have couple of F mount lenses (Makro Panar 2/100 and APO Sonnar 2/135) and they are optically and mechanically excellent.  If i didn't have focal lengths of the M lenses we discuss here and I needed or wanted than i would give Cosina/Voightlander serious consideration.  

Can't comment on Artisan, seems interesting lenses are being offered, Chines manufacture combined with German design, perhaps among the best of both world's.  If you get Artisan 75mm let us know how good it is.  Assuming quality is acceptable having smaller size than Leica is closer to Leica's own design principles.

Note; Speaking as owner of APO Summicron M 50mm and Summilux M 75mm.

 

[RF’sDelight]

Big ass glasses, love them both. I always want to use them more but they are such a heavy load around my neck. 😉
1) Noctilux-M 50mm f/0.95, 2) Summilux-M 75mm f/1.4

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