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Why is there no auto-focus for any of Leica's cameras/lenses?


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Which AF system is as fast (12 milliseconds), accurate and as easy to use as an MP set at its hyperfocal distance. None.

 

It also sounds a bit easier to learn and control than; focus mode, focus point selection, shutter activation mode, etc, etc...

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I normally set the hyperfocal distance, (or zone) for a given type of shooting before I start. So to take the actual shots no time at all is taken on focussing.

 

My personal experience with AF cameras was an exacerbating waste of time and money. I've shot skiing, tennis and other sports professionally and I always reverted back to manual focus. For the type of work that an M is suited I think AF would be counter productive. I personally can't think about more than three things at once. Shutter, aperture and focus point. I've only just learnt to walk and chew gum at the same time!

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Every reason that is listed for why Leica did not make an AF R camera system sounds like a list of tired excuses to me. What did it get them? Not enough sales to keep producing the camera and lenses.

 

Why is Leica putting AF in the S2? The medium format SLRs I've owned were all hard to focus even with bright screens. (All were manual focusing cameras.) I tried the S2 out at a show and it seemed to focus very quickly and accurately. So after more than 20 years, either the technology has caught up to Leica's standards or Leica has seen the light.

 

I've owned many Nikon cameras since 1968. Some were manual focus and some were AF. I've also owned Leicaflex SL gear. I was not too impressed with the speed of the AF on the Nikon bodies and lenses I had. (The most recent AF model I had was the N90.) The newer motorized lenses and bodies surely are much better. 6 years ago I bought Canon gear and have owned a 1Ds, 1DII, 5D and 5DII. I find the AF remarkable and it works great for me. Just as with anything, you have to know how to use it and practice with it until it becomes second nature. So if you haven't tried the latest technology, it might be worth a look.

 

I use the rear AF focus button, focus on the subject and release it. I do not let the camera focus on whatever it wants. And rarely use servo mode. It is not a problem to manually turn the lens's focus ring at any time, as long as you are not also pressing the focus button. But I rarely need to override the AF. Hitting that button to focus and then re-framing if necessary is very quick - sort of like using a rangefinder only faster. I have 6 manual focus PC and TS-E lenses that seem easy to focus on the camera. Some are used stopped down.

Edited by AlanG
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AF technology didn't get good until the 90's and such technologies are patented. So if Leica wanted to develope an AF R system and use the latest technology they would have had to develop it themselves else license it from someone else. By the 90's Leica was already a niche brand and likely would not have found such investment viable.

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A lot has already been said and I would just like to add my .02 cents

 

AF in a Leica M rangefinder is a little something of a oxymoron. If you remove the rangefinder unit and replace it with a AF system, you no longer have a rangefinder, but an oversized point and shoot with interchangeable lenses (See Contax G-series, nice lenses by the way). Adding AF to an SLR merely automates a function that is normally performed manually, yet the mechanical concept remains the same. Besides, the M series has traditionally been shot using scale focusing, which is faster than any AF system on the planet.

 

I agree that Leica resisted AF, because they felt they could not build lenses that meet their mechanical tolerances and didn't weigh a ton. It will be interesting to see how they solved these issues with the S2. Luckily we have made massive advancements in materials and electronics in the past decades.

 

The dirty little secret of AF is that many, many shooters only use a single center point or group for focus; not all the points their system supplies...

 

AF is a pain in the a** for many types of shooting, which is why I sold my Canon gear and went Nikon. At least Nikon gives you the choice of AF or manual focus. Canon shafted everyone when they changed their mount and only offered AF lenses. Luckily you can now buy manual focus Zeiss glass in EF mount.

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I normally set the hyperfocal distance, (or zone) for a given type of shooting before I start. So to take the actual shots no time at all is taken on focussing.

 

My personal experience with AF cameras was an exacerbating waste of time and money. I've shot skiing, tennis and other sports professionally and I always reverted back to manual focus. For the type of work that an M is suited I think AF would be counter productive. I personally can't think about more than three things at once. Shutter, aperture and focus point. I've only just learnt to walk and chew gum at the same time!

Having tried many cameras over many years, including the latest plastic, fantastic wonders from Japan, Inc., I've come to these conclusions:

1. All AF systems are flaky, it's just a matter of degree. By the time you figure out if AF has picked the right spot and adjusted the focus point or shifted and recompose until the camera thinks it has it right, you could have focused youself and moved on the the next image.

2. All AE systems are flaky, it's just a matter of degree.Outguessing the camera automation to determine if there's subject failure, backlight, etc, and deciding if spot, matrix, of center-weighting is less wrong and dialing in compensation through labarynthin layers of menus, a hand-held meter properly used will get you result that are faster and more accurate.

3. Don't get me started about AWB. The flakiest of all.

Call me old school, a tragledite, whatever, but I think I can do much better thinking and operating by myself.

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AF is vital for selling cameras. The vast majority of purchasers have never seen a good SLR viewfinder and they believe that that there's some obscure magic involved in focussing manually.

 

It also takes a lot of practice to be able to work fast and accurately with a MF setup.

 

I doubt there are a lot of people around that can handle MF long glass like you do Doug...

;-)

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It also takes a lot of practice to be able to work fast and accurately with a MF setup.

 

I doubt there are a lot of people around that can handle MF long glass like you do Doug...

;-)

 

What is wrong with practice to master a craft?

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The hard facts are that no young photographer today would select Leica if he was looking for a SLR solution, so all the R series has going for it is a groupe of middle aged photographers which eventually will be dying out.

 

Fortunately for Leica these bright youngsters will turn into doddering middleaged photographers in due course..;)

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AF technology didn't get good until the 90's and such technologies are patented. So if Leica wanted to develope an AF R system and use the latest technology they would have had to develop it themselves else license it from someone else. By the 90's Leica was already a niche brand and likely would not have found such investment viable.

 

My understanding is that Leica were one of the first SLR manufacturers to "invent" auto focus! I am told that there was such an uproar from Leica fanatical customers(similar to some of those on this thread no doubt!) that the then management decided not to implement it in production and the designss were sold to Minolta where they still exist (doubtless further developed) today by Sony who eventually bought the buyer of Minolta. Many of the Minolta AF lenses are still going strong and are enjoying a new lease of life with Sony Alpha DSLR cameras.

 

I can vouch for their speed and accuracy in nailing focus......so well done Leica, your engineers are so much better than your management decisions!

 

The new R10 or whatever it will be called, will it is said, be designed for a new range of Leica auto focus lenses. If that decision had been made 30 years ago, the Leica company might be in a very different market position today me thinks! If backwards compatibility with R m/f lenses is built in, then doubtless focus confirmation and a dual purpose viewfinder will be accomodated, satisfying our excellent guru photographers who are also superb at focusing manually, such as Doug Herr. I wish I could say the same on both counts!

 

Bring on the R10.

Edited by dhsimmonds
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The new R10 or whatever it will be called, will it is said, be designed for a new range of Leica auto focus lenses. If that decision had been made 30 years ago, the Leica company might be in a very different market position today me thinks!

 

Thirty years ago the computing power required to drive AF was not available in a portable form.

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I am told that there was such an uproar from Leica fanatical customers(similar to some of those on this thread no doubt!) that the then management decided not to implement it in production and the designs were sold to Minolta where they still exist (doubtless further developed) today by Sony who eventually bought the buyer of Minolta.

 

Sorry, but I feel the need to set the record straight. The Leica system did not look very practical as it was opto-mechanical, was large, and was connected to a desktop computer. At that time, Honeywell already had a digital solution (AF sensor and processing chip) that they must have been working on for some time. They negotiated with several Japanese camera makers - Konica was the first to use the chip in a viewfinder camera. Minolta and other SLR companies wanted HP to improve or alter the chip in various ways. When Honeywell didn't do that Minolta made their own. Minolta and many other camera companies were sued by Honeywell.

 

Look up autofocus, Minolta and Honeywell on Google for more details.

Edited by AlanG
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Thank you Doug and Alan

 

Alan, I did as you suggested and found the following which supports what I have always believed to be so:

  • 1972: Minolta signs an agreement to cooperate with Leica in SLR development;
  • 1973: The Minolta CL is the first fruit of this agreement.
  • 1976: The Leica R3 is introduced. Minolta produces the R3, R4, and R5 models in the Leica R series. Subsequent cameras are built in Germany by Leica themselves.
  • 1981: Implementation of Minolta's invention and patent of TTL (through-the-lens) OTF (off-the-film) exposure metering: the Minolta CLE is the first 35mmrangefinder camera to feature TTL metering and aperture priority autoexposure. The Minolta X-700 manual-focus SLR is introduced; this model is sold until 1999 and is enormously successful. The Minolta XD-11 (Model E) is the first Minolta product branded with an updated logo (in caps), which was in use until the 2003 merger with Konica.
  • 1985: The Minolta Maxxum 7000 becomes the world's first truly successful autofocus SLR. Other manufacturers soon follow suit, but Minolta's innovation yields much sales success

The Minolta Maxxum 7000, released in 1985, was the first SLR with an integrated autofocus system, meaning both the AF sensors and the drive motor were housed in the camera body, as well as an integrated film advance winder

 

 

My understanding is that Leica developed this very portable AF system well before 1985 when it was used by Minolta, probably as part of their mutual business assocation..who knows?

 

I also understand that some of the early Minolta m/f lenses were also branded for sale or eventually manufactured by Leica to grow their infant slr....our well loved R range!

 

With all this design experience a new AF reflex camera from Leica should be a real cracker!

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What is wrong with practice to master a craft?

 

Nothing. I was complimenting Doug and stating that it takes a lot of practice to

really master manual focus. Up until a few years ago you could still see some of

the old guard press guys shoot with a MF Nikon and boy were they fast.

Very impressive to see in real life.

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