Send me some DNGs?

[Eikyo09]

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I'm having a hard time finding some sample DNG files from M240. Links to the official Leica samples no longer exist and haven't been able to find anything at higher ISOs 1600 and above on other blogs.

I want to play around and see what is possible with noise reduction in post. Any findings I'll post here and will hopefully help others who are deciding on this camera vs M10.

You can send the files via wetransfer, dropbox, or whatever you prefer.

Thanks!

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[CharlesL]

You'll find some at https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2013/02/leica-m-images-jonathan-slack/

 

[Eikyo09]

 

On 11/9/2018 at 5:05 AM, CharlesL said:

You'll find some at https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2013/02/leica-m-images-jonathan-slack/

 

Thanks, I did download and play with these before posting here but unfortunately the highest ISO in these samples is 2500. I has hoping to compare iso 3200 and 6400 with M10 files.

[Peter Kilmister]

One of the problems with sending DNG files is that they are the photographer's copyright. I have several DNG files shot at high ISO however I am loathe to share them ... because I took the photos and they belong to me. That said, I do understand your wish and, in my perfect world, there would be no question of sharing. However, if I share a DNG with you and you develop it and sell millions of prints then I am the loser. I believe in win/win. So I'd have to ask you to sign a legal disclaimer that would both cost us, in international lawyer fees, more than the price of an M10 each.

Sorry to be negative but we all need to retain our copyright. I suggest you go to your nearest Leica shop and ask to test an M10 using your own SD card. They normally let you do that. Then ask to do the same with an older camera. The resulting DNGs are your copyright. You can do whatever you want with them.

Best wishes and good luck.

 

[Eikyo09]

9 minutes ago, Peter Kilmister said:

One of the problems with sending DNG files is that they are the photographer's copyright. I have several DNG files shot at high ISO however I am loathe to share them ... because I took the photos and they belong to me. That said, I do understand your wish and, in my perfect world, there would be no question of sharing. However, if I share a DNG with you and you develop it and sell millions of prints then I am the loser. I believe in win/win. So I'd have to ask you to sign a legal disclaimer that would both cost us, in international lawyer fees, more than the price of an M10 each.

Sorry to be negative but we all need to retain our copyright. I suggest you go to your nearest Leica shop and ask to test an M10 using your own SD card. They normally let you do that. Then ask to do the same with an older camera. The resulting DNGs are your copyright. You can do whatever you want with them.

Best wishes and good luck.

 

Peter, I understand your concern certainly wouldn't want you to share anything you think is worth more than a M10's value. I wasn't looking for any stellar works of art shot at iso 3200 or 6400. A simple blank wall or object, nothing worth any value to the photographer or myself,  just simply determining how well today's noise correction works on these presumably noisy files of the M240/262. Regarding going to a Leica shop, there aren't any unfortunately where I live and would require a plane ticket.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Eikyo09

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, Eikyo09 said:

Peter, I understand your concern certainly wouldn't want you to share anything you think is worth more than a M10's value. I wasn't looking for any stellar works of art shot at iso 3200 or 6400. A simple blank wall or object, nothing worth any value to the photographer or myself,  just simply determining how well today's noise correction works on these presumably noisy files of the M240/262. Regarding going to a Leica shop, there aren't any unfortunately where I live and would require a plane ticket.

Really?

 

Englewood Camera

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[Eikyo09]

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Thanks jaapv. Not currently stateside but I know Englewood Camera and will give them your regards next time I’m in town.  

For those interested in the topic at hand and those who don’t have easy access to a Leica store, these are the best images I found so far with jpegs in 3200 and 6400:

https://blog.mingthein.com/2013/02/22/2013-leica-m-typ-240-review/

https://www.ultrasomething.com/2015/04/sensors-and-sensibility/

https://www.travelisbeautiful.com/ricks-blog/2017/9/2/a-comparison-of-leica-m10-and-m240

https://www.streetsilhouettes.com/home/2017/2/8/leica-m10-review-part-2-low-light-comparison

My impressions so far based on my research while not being able to touch a single M240 high iso file: below iso 2500 is safe but anything higher you lose significant dynamic range and noise/banding is introduced.

If you can nail perfect exposure that doesn’t require exposure changes in post you could probably get away with 3200 fine. 6400 probably if converted to black and white. It was also discovered that the M240 shadows had a greenish cast to them. This could be corrected as one website provided a tool to remove this in Lightroom. You should expect the image quality to be on par with a 2010 DSLR another website noted.

Another member of this forum mentioned noise and banding in the shadows in low iso but this was only visible with significant exposure corrections. If you shoot mostly daylight and can nail proper exposure I think the M240 would be fine. If you want flexibility in post and a 1-2 stop advantage in low light then the M10 is more suitable. There is no arguing the M10’s is a better camera but you have to ask yourself if it is worth paying close to double at this time of writing. 

Regarding noise correction in post I haven’t had the privilege of testing this out and the fact is even on Flickr I have a hard time finding any images with this camera above 3000. There also seems to be a reluctance of sharing photos on this forum with high iso. Perhaps this is because the images look pretty ugly. As a documentary photographer noise doesn’t scare me as much as the banding. Noise can be made to look like film grain with the proper tools and as a last resort B&W. Banding on the other hand I don’t know what can be done with that. 

So initial summary:

M240 - less expensive but keep it below 3000 iso 

M10 - more expensive and more flexibility in post

As another alternative one could buy a M240 used and a new A7iii with adaptor for about the same price as a used M10. The A7iii I suspect is on par if not better than the M10 for low light but obviously not as not as fun as the rangefinder. 

I’ll continue adding anything else I find and will let you know what camera I end up settling on.

[pgk]

27 minutes ago, Eikyo09 said:

The A7iii I suspect is on par if not better than the M10 for low light but obviously not as not as fun as the rangefinder.

If you must have ultimate image 'quality' (whatever that is), then Leica rangefinders are not the cameras for you. If you don't mind battling appalling menu systems then go for a Sony. Personally I'd rather have an intuitive, simple camera and accept that it isn't the ultimate one available - mind you I'm still using M9s professionally so what do I know?

[Eikyo09]

50 minutes ago, pgk said:

If you must have ultimate image 'quality' (whatever that is), then Leica rangefinders are not the cameras for you. If you don't mind battling appalling menu systems then go for a Sony. Personally I'd rather have an intuitive, simple camera and accept that it isn't the ultimate one available - mind you I'm still using M9s professionally so what do I know?

Couldn't agree more pgk that's why I'm buying a leica!

[t00l1024]

I used to own the M240, and now the M10 (also a MM1 and a7iii with adapters). I’m getting rid of the Sony. Absolutely despise the menu system, crashes and a hundred different buttons. I always grab the M10. Always. The honeymoon with this camera will continue to last a while. 

Get the M10. 😉

In your search for DNGs and looking at noise in high ISO settings, have you noticed the “style” of noise? It’s subjective, but I’ve found the noise from Leica more pleasing and closer to the grain found in film. This is especially true with the CCD Leicas, but the M10 is quite nice too. 

[Eikyo09]

To close things off just wanted to let everyone know I came to the conclusion the M10 is a better fit for my needs and placed an order for a used one via Popflash today. In the future if anyone wants some high ISO DNGs from the M10 let me know and I'll gladly share some with no strings attached.