My fear of moving to Leica (Q or M10)

[IamTheDistance]

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This is my second message and the first question I want to ask you guys. First, I'm going to put my situation in context. I've been taking photos for 11 years and collect Canon FF bodies and some L lenses. Then, 2 years ago I started to shoot street photography only and I barely use this equipment. Too big and heavy to walk around Tokyo during 4 or 5 hours and 0% stealth. So I used my phone for street photography. 6 months ago I bought the Fujifilm x100f and it was my best photography purchase ever. I've taken some of the best pictures of my life with that little monster. But...

Focusing through the OVF is awful on that Fuji and I don't like EVF so much (I prefer the rear LCD screen with focus peaking). Then, for my birthday my wife and me went to a Leica Gallery. Yes, my birthday present was play around with some Leicas and visit the Shoji Ueda gallery 😅and it was the beginning of a beautiful friendship. It was the first time I look and focus through a real rangefinder and focus was VERY EASY. Even at f/2 with the 35mm cron with the M10. Pin sharp! The M10 is heavier than I expected but it fits perfectly in my hand, so confortable! My x100f is small for my hands, a toy. Then I tried the Leica Q and it was even better! The focus tab was as good as the 35mm cron, smooth ring, much lighter than M10... what a joy! BUT...

As I've read in this forum, the M10 have problems with dust inside the viewfinder and also it needs rangefinder calibration sometimes. The Q have problems with dust in the sensor. It seems that buying those cameras is risky, a lottery. I can't spend so much money for a defective or poorly designed product. What should I do? What are your experiences? 😩

I should say I don't use autofocus. In my x100f I use the rear lock focus button sometimes in manual mode (yes, it works in manual mode. It also works like that in the Leica Q?). I prefer the rangefinder experience and sometimes shooting through the LCD liveview. The M10 should work for me but the shutter is noisy! I love the leaf shutters in x100f and Leica Q. 100% stealth. What do you recommend me so far? Thank you!!

Edit: I forgot to say I love the 28mm field of view. Maybe because I spent too much time shooting with my iPhone 😅

Edited November 4, 2018 by IamTheDistance

[Jeff S]

The M10-P is more quiet.  Obviously the Q will limit you to 28mm, while the M will encourage you to spend lots more on multiple lenses.  Buy from a reputable dealer with warranty, and get insurance.  Then don’t worry.

Choices are personal.  All provide excellent IQ.  Buy what makes you happy.

Jeff

[IamTheDistance]

16 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The M10-P is more quiet.  Obviously the Q will limit you to 28mm, while the M will encourage you to spend lots more on multiple lenses.  Buy from a reputable dealer with warranty, and get insurance.  Then don’t worry.

Choices are personal.  All provide excellent IQ.  Buy what makes you happy.

Jeff
 

Thank you! The store staff showed me the M10-P shutter sound vs the M10 and it was like day and night hahaha. It was a really nice muted sound but the camera is about 2000 dollars more expensive than the M10 here in Japan 🤔I can't pay for it. The fact I like the Q is because the 28mm. My options are Leica Q or Leica M10 with 28mm elmarit. The real reason I want to move to Leica is because the Fuji has not depth of field guide in the lens and the optical viewfinder is not good for focusing. Leica has both
But my fear is the problems with dust. I don't want to send the camera to repair, so I would like to hear some real world experiences with these cameras.

Edited November 4, 2018 by IamTheDistance

[Jeff S]

Bummer... only $700 difference in US. 

I’ve owned M (and R) cameras since the 80’s and service needs have been minimal.   I clean the sensor as needed, which is infrequent.  Stuff happens... with all manufacturers.

Jeff

[erl]

Sensor cleaning is NOT a big issue, IMO. I have used Leica  digital cams with changing lenses in every imaginable environment for the last 20(?) or more years from Antarctica to the Sahara Desert and never had serious dust problems. Yes, cleaning can be necessary but I think I only need to do it once or twice a year. Base your selection on other criteria is my advice.

[IamTheDistance]

27 minutes ago, erl said:

Sensor cleaning is NOT a big issue, IMO. I have used Leica  digital cams with changing lenses in every imaginable environment for the last 20(?) or more years from Antarctica to the Sahara Desert and never had serious dust problems. Yes, cleaning can be necessary but I think I only need to do it once or twice a year. Base your selection on other criteria is my advice.

Thanks, Erl! Sensor cleaning in a M camera is not a problem, but the dust inside the viewfinder and the rangefinder calibration are problems for me. I'm new to this and it scares me. I should send the camera to calibrate or clean then and I don't want to be without my camera for some weeks. Also, sensor cleaning in the Q is a problem because of the fixed lens. I've read those problems in this forum but I don't know if those problems are rare or they occur very often 🤔

[erl]

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4 hours ago, IamTheDistance said:

Thanks, Erl! Sensor cleaning in a M camera is not a problem, but the dust inside the viewfinder and the rangefinder calibration are problems for me. I'm new to this and it scares me. I should send the camera to calibrate or clean then and I don't want to be without my camera for some weeks. Also, sensor cleaning in the Q is a problem because of the fixed lens. I've read those problems in this forum but I don't know if those problems are rare or they occur very often 🤔

I cannot comment on anything to do with the Q as I don't have one, but I have eight RF Leicas (don't let that fact get out! 😎) and I have never had a hint of dust issues in the RF's. I have has a couple of RF calibration issues as a result of knocks on older cameras, which were easily fixed. I am confident that the M10 is more robust in that respect. I am sure it does happen, as you have read, but there are more success stories than failures. Bad news always gets publicity, the good news (the bulk) never gets aired. Trust the statistics. 🙂

[IamTheDistance]

20 minutes ago, erl said:

I cannot comment on anything to do with the Q as I don't have one, but I have eight RF Leicas (don't let that fact get out! 😎) and I have never had a hint of dust issues in the RF's. I have has a couple of RF calibration issues as a result of knocks on older cameras, which were easily fixed. I am confident that the M10 is more robust in that respect. I am sure it does happen, as you have read, but there are more success stories than failures. Bad news always gets publicity, the good news (the bulk) never gets aired. Trust the statistics. 🙂

That's so true! bad news are noisier than good news! I just need to decide M10 or Q. Price difference, which suits better for my style of shooting... I was seeing the M10 images and Q images threads and I loved the images taken with the Q. I know it has to do with the photographer, not the camera, but the M10 images seemed out of focus, blurred, colors were off or too much saturated, bad compositions... But in reality the Q and M10 image quality are almost equal. Tough decision...

[carbon_dragon]

Well, maybe I'm not sufficiently careful, but I've bought 2 M2s, an M8, M9, and lately an M10 and I've never sent the cameras in to have the rangefinder calibrated. I can't say for certain they don't need it, but I kind of suspect that just mounting a different lens might make some tiny difference. I'd probably have to send in all my lenses too to get it absolutely totally accurate, and since there are no leica service centers here in Atlanta, I'm not going to do that. But then I'm not a professional, so maybe I'm just not critical enough. I'm not sure why you would be for street photography either, I mean it's not like you'll have the camera on a tripod.

Regarding dust, any digital camera can get dust on the sensor. So far when ever I see some dust, I use the sensor cleaning system to open the shutter so I can see the sensor, turn it upside down, and use a rocket blower to blow off the dust. So far so good. When I change lenses, I turn the camera off, turn it upside down, get the new lens ready, and then take the old one off and the new one on as quickly and efficiently as possible. The best dust removal policy is not to have any to remove, so hopefully I can eliminate some possibility. Also the Leica shutter covers the sensor usually, so this tends to help. Sure I'd like a dust removal system which shakes the dust off the sensor, but leica doesn't have that.

No the thing to worry about (especially when buying Leicas used as I do) is how long it will take you to get done (especially if you have to send it to Leica) and how much it will cost (if you don't have a warranty). If my M9 develops a sensor problem, and Leica doesn't replace it as part of a voluntary program, then it will probably cost me a couple of grand to have it repaired. This is even true of the M8 which isn't worth that much on the used market. I'm afraid of that, I'm not afraid of the rangefinder being out of alignment. 

Plus if you DO get some stubborn something on your sensor, you can't (or at least I can't) go down to my local mall to the "Leica store" to have them clean it (in the way I could take my Apple product to the Apple store). THEN I probably would have to ship it to New Jersey in the USA to have the sensor professionally cleaned. But so far I haven't had to. 

They're awesome cameras but you really have to spend some money to get them. I think it's worth it, but I've always bought used and up to the M10, I've always bought an older model when the newer model appears to minimize cost. These days the M8s and M9s are comparative bargains and even the M240 isn't bad but that still means over $3K here in the US. I kind of went crazy and skipped the M240 and bought an M10 and my bank balance is still stinging.

[TomB_tx]

I also have used Leica M cameras since 1968, and while they were film cameras the rangefinder is very similar, and I never had one go out of adjustment, except when one was serviced (by an independent tech) and was slightly off when returned. My M9 did need calibration once, but once corrected it has been solid. I suspect the original adjustment wasn't properly sealed. Likewise I've never had a problem with dust in the VF. 

I like the sound of the M10 shutter, and wouldn't call it loud at all, but then I've used film SLRs through decades and got used to their noises.

[Tom R]

8 hours ago, IamTheDistance said:

This is my second message and the first question I want to ask you guys. First, I'm going to put my situation in context. I've been taking photos for 11 years and collect Canon FF bodies and some L lenses. Then, 2 years ago I started to shoot street photography only and I barely use this equipment. Too big and heavy to walk around Tokyo during 4 or 5 hours and 0% stealth. So I used my phone for street photography. 6 months ago I bought the Fujifilm x100f and it was my best photography purchase ever. I've taken some of the best pictures of my life with that little monster. But...

Focusing through the OVF is awful on that Fuji and I don't like EVF so much (I prefer the rear LCD screen with focus peaking). Then, for my birthday my wife and me went to a Leica Gallery. Yes, my birthday present was play around with some Leicas and visit the Shoji Ueda gallery 😅and it was the beginning of a beautiful friendship. It was the first time I look and focus through a real rangefinder and focus was VERY EASY. Even at f/2 with the 35mm cron with the M10. Pin sharp! The M10 is heavier than I expected but it fits perfectly in my hand, so confortable! My x100f is small for my hands, a toy. Then I tried the Leica Q and it was even better! The focus tab was as good as the 35mm cron, smooth ring, much lighter than M10... what a joy! BUT...

As I've read in this forum, the M10 have problems with dust inside the viewfinder and also it needs rangefinder calibration sometimes. The Q have problems with dust in the sensor. It seems that buying those cameras is risky, a lottery. I can't spend so much money for a defective or poorly designed product. What should I do? What are your experiences? 😩

I should say I don't use autofocus. In my x100f I use the rear lock focus button sometimes in manual mode (yes, it works in manual mode. It also works like that in the Leica Q?). I prefer the rangefinder experience and sometimes shooting through the LCD liveview. The M10 should work for me but the shutter is noisy! I love the leaf shutters in x100f and Leica Q. 100% stealth. What do you recommend me so far? Thank you!!

Edit: I forgot to say I love the 28mm field of view. Maybe because I spent too much time shooting with my iPhone 😅

I'm not exactly clear on what you are asking here ... If you're concerned about size and weight and are considering analog Leica cameras to accommodate a 28mm lens, why not pick up a CLA'd M4-P, any modern Leica 28mm lens, and learn to meter manually. Spend the money you just saved on purchasing enough film, preferably something in the 200-400 ASA range, to develop a second-nature sense of how your equipment and film will respond to a variety of likely settings, and get to work? 

 

Now, if you're considering only digital equipment, then expect to spend a lot more money and some time developing a good workflow and learning how to clean sensors, etc. 

 

I see, from your original message, that you're concerned about focus. With a 28mm lens and a reasonably fast film, most lightning situations will give you enough freedom to obtain reasonable results without fidgeting with perfect focus (whatever that means).

 

Finally, as far as shutter noise, etc., are concerned: in thirty plus years of shooting in public spaces I've observed that (1) People are not stupid; they know (approximately) that you are there and why; (2) Most people won't give a toss; and, most importantly (3) It's good to develop a sense for those people who will be concerned about you and what you are doing and to carefully consider how to work around those situations. For example: going to a park and photographing a playground seems harmless. But, in America at least, unless you have a child in that park, more than a few parents will become extremely agitated and your morning plans might devolve quickly into a lesson on what happens when Constitutional rights to free speech/access confront a fearful audience---and what camera you're using at that time will be irrelevant.

 

Tom R.

[carbon_dragon]

The voigtlander VC meters are great choices for Leicas that do not have a meter internally. They clip on to the accessory shoe and work great. Also with older film leicas like the M2 and M3 there are actually clip on meters from Leica that are made for those cameras, though I prefer the Voigtlander one. 

Just a little extra information. Assuming you decide to shop for Leica and go for a digital one, your choices are the M8, M9, M240, and M10. Obviously the M10 is the best if you can afford it. I paid just under $6000 US dollars at Tamarkin for mine. The M8 will be cheapest, probably at the $1500'ish mark but it's APS-H so 35mm lenses are equivalent to 45.5mm on the M8 due to the crop factor. And the M8 (10.1MP) is susceptible to IR which means you CAN get purple blacks from fabrics (though I am not a people shooter so it never really affected me) unless you use an IR CUT filter, but you can put a real opaque IR filter on there and get some nice infrared pictures! Which is why I still have mine. 

The M9 (18.1MP) is a good general purpose full frame camera and it seems to be trading at about $3000 US'ish. Depends on condition and who's selling it etc. The M240 is not that much more, maybe $3500 US and gives you 24MP and live view and video (which the M10 lacks). 

Note the M8 and M9 have had issues with their sensors but I have been lucky. There is a risk buying one today which hasn't had the sensor replaced. I'm not sure how high the risk is. I worry about it but so far my sensors are fine. Try to buy from a reputable used dealer which may give you a warranty for at least 6mo to a year. Leica's new warranties are for 2 years I believe (though I buy used so I've never used one).

Curiously, my M2s seem to be selling for more than I paid these days. Not sure exactly why but the digitals do go down in price as new models appear. You could probably buy a film leica like an M2 and then resell it later if you don't like it without much loss. Probably also true of the lens you might buy to use on it. Really the lenses are what is going to kill you. Not sure what you want for street photography, I'm guessing 35mm or 50mm (or 24mm and 35mm for the M8). My own research for landscapes led to a 50mm/2 Summicron (pre-ASPH) and a 35/2 Summicron ASPH. That's probably $3000 to $3500 worth of lenses on top of the camera you buy! I'd just buy one to start. 

Anyway, from what I have heard the Fuji X100s are great cameras so maybe you'll decide to stay with that. Good luck and let us know what you decide to do.

[wda]

2 hours ago, IamTheDistance said:

That's so true! bad news are noisier than good news! I just need to decide M10 or Q. Price difference, which suits better for my style of shooting... I was seeing the M10 images and Q images threads and I loved the images taken with the Q. I know it has to do with the photographer, not the camera, but the M10 images seemed out of focus, blurred, colors were off or too much saturated, bad compositions... But in reality the Q and M10 image quality are almost equal. Tough decision...

Remember that with the Q you have bi-lens, even tri-lens camera. I use mine mostly at 28mm full-frame. But occasionally I select internal crop to 35mm or 50mm. In processing I can fine-tune the crop selection or even revert to the full 28mm coverage. The image quality is so good that you can feel that you have three focal lengths in one optic. There is a price to pay, but that is slight for most purposes.

[IamTheDistance]

1 hour ago, carbon_dragon said:

Well, maybe I'm not sufficiently careful, but I've bought 2 M2s, an M8, M9, and lately an M10 and I've never sent the cameras in to have the rangefinder calibrated. I can't say for certain they don't need it, but I kind of suspect that just mounting a different lens might make some tiny difference. I'd probably have to send in all my lenses too to get it absolutely totally accurate, and since there are no leica service centers here in Atlanta, I'm not going to do that. But then I'm not a professional, so maybe I'm just not critical enough. I'm not sure why you would be for street photography either, I mean it's not like you'll have the camera on a tripod.

Regarding dust, any digital camera can get dust on the sensor. So far when ever I see some dust, I use the sensor cleaning system to open the shutter so I can see the sensor, turn it upside down, and use a rocket blower to blow off the dust. So far so good. When I change lenses, I turn the camera off, turn it upside down, get the new lens ready, and then take the old one off and the new one on as quickly and efficiently as possible. The best dust removal policy is not to have any to remove, so hopefully I can eliminate some possibility. Also the Leica shutter covers the sensor usually, so this tends to help. Sure I'd like a dust removal system which shakes the dust off the sensor, but leica doesn't have that.

No the thing to worry about (especially when buying Leicas used as I do) is how long it will take you to get done (especially if you have to send it to Leica) and how much it will cost (if you don't have a warranty). If my M9 develops a sensor problem, and Leica doesn't replace it as part of a voluntary program, then it will probably cost me a couple of grand to have it repaired. This is even true of the M8 which isn't worth that much on the used market. I'm afraid of that, I'm not afraid of the rangefinder being out of alignment. 

Plus if you DO get some stubborn something on your sensor, you can't (or at least I can't) go down to my local mall to the "Leica store" to have them clean it (in the way I could take my Apple product to the Apple store). THEN I probably would have to ship it to New Jersey in the USA to have the sensor professionally cleaned. But so far I haven't had to. 

They're awesome cameras but you really have to spend some money to get them. I think it's worth it, but I've always bought used and up to the M10, I've always bought an older model when the newer model appears to minimize cost. These days the M8s and M9s are comparative bargains and even the M240 isn't bad but that still means over $3K here in the US. I kind of went crazy and skipped the M240 and bought an M10 and my bank balance is still stinging.

Thank you for the elaborated reply! The Leica Q sensor is covered also by the lens but even that it seems the Q is a dust collector. As I can't clean it sensor at home because of the fixed lens I have to send 'somewhere' to be cleaned. I saved money for this and I can afford a Leica M262 + 28mm f2.8 elmarit or Leica M10 + 28mm f2.8 elmarit or the cheapest option, Leica Q which is also a different shooting experience. I would buy only second hand 😇

 

1 hour ago, TomB_tx said:

I also have used Leica M cameras since 1968, and while they were film cameras the rangefinder is very similar, and I never had one go out of adjustment, except when one was serviced (by an independent tech) and was slightly off when returned. My M9 did need calibration once, but once corrected it has been solid. I suspect the original adjustment wasn't properly sealed. Likewise I've never had a problem with dust in the VF. 

I like the sound of the M10 shutter, and wouldn't call it loud at all, but then I've used film SLRs through decades and got used to their noises.

I loved the sound of the M10 shutter but it's noisy comparing to my x100f leaf shutter which makes no sound hahaha. My subjects are really near when I shoot so they could hear the shutter sound easily. That's my biggest concern because I'm used to be 100% silent.

 

43 minutes ago, Tom R said:

I'm not exactly clear on what you are asking here ... If you're concerned about size and weight and are considering analog Leica cameras to accommodate a 28mm lens, why not pick up a CLA'd M4-P, any modern Leica 28mm lens, and learn to meter manually. Spend the money you just saved on purchasing enough film, preferably something in the 200-400 ASA range, to develop a second-nature sense of how your equipment and film will respond to a variety of likely settings, and get to work? 

 

Now, if you're considering only digital equipment, then expect to spend a lot more money and some time developing a good workflow and learning how to clean sensors, etc. 

 

I see, from your original message, that you're concerned about focus. With a 28mm lens and a reasonably fast film, most lightning situations will give you enough freedom to obtain reasonable results without fidgeting with perfect focus (whatever that means).

 

Finally, as far as shutter noise, etc., are concerned: in thirty plus years of shooting in public spaces I've observed that (1) People are not stupid; they know (approximately) that you are there and why; (2) Most people won't give a toss; and, most importantly (3) It's good to develop a sense for those people who will be concerned about you and what you are doing and to carefully consider how to work around those situations. For example: going to a park and photographing a playground seems harmless. But, in America at least, unless you have a child in that park, more than a few parents will become extremely agitated and your morning plans might devolve quickly into a lesson on what happens when Constitutional rights to free speech/access confront a fearful audience---and what camera you're using at that time will be irrelevant.

 

Tom R.

I'm asking for experiences of people who have a Leica M10 or a Leica Q. I've read on this forum that some people has problems with those cameras and I would like to know if this is something punctual or it occurs really often. I don't want to spend so much money on a defective product >.< 

My friend has a Leica M6 and maybe he is the guilty that I want to buy a Leica hahaha, but I'm sure I don't want to buy a film camera. In the long run I would spend more money on film rolls than buying a digital Leica.

It depends on how your shooting style is. I like to be present, I don't hide myself. I'm concerned that people around me know I'm taking photos, I want they know it. But I don't want they know when I'm taking the photo. That's the reason I prefer a leaf shutter or almost silent shutter. When they hear the shutter sound, the moment is broken. They look at me, even do the peace pose ✌🏻and that's the last thing I want to include in my photos.

20 minutes ago, carbon_dragon said:

The voigtlander VC meters are great choices for Leicas that do not have a meter internally. They clip on to the accessory shoe and work great. Also with older film leicas like the M2 and M3 there are actually clip on meters from Leica that are made for those cameras, though I prefer the Voigtlander one. 

Just a little extra information. Assuming you decide to shop for Leica and go for a digital one, your choices are the M8, M9, M240, and M10. Obviously the M10 is the best if you can afford it. I paid just under $6000 US dollars at Tamarkin for mine. The M8 will be cheapest, probably at the $1500'ish mark but it's APS-H so 35mm lenses are equivalent to 45.5mm on the M8 due to the crop factor. And the M8 (10.1MP) is susceptible to IR which means you CAN get purple blacks from fabrics (though I am not a people shooter so it never really affected me) unless you use an IR CUT filter, but you can put a real opaque IR filter on there and get some nice infrared pictures! Which is why I still have mine. 

The M9 (18.1MP) is a good general purpose full frame camera and it seems to be trading at about $3000 US'ish. Depends on condition and who's selling it etc. The M240 is not that much more, maybe $3500 US and gives you 24MP and live view and video (which the M10 lacks). 

Note the M8 and M9 have had issues with their sensors but I have been lucky. There is a risk buying one today which hasn't had the sensor replaced. I'm not sure how high the risk is. I worry about it but so far my sensors are fine. Try to buy from a reputable used dealer which may give you a warranty for at least 6mo to a year. Leica's new warranties are for 2 years I believe (though I buy used so I've never used one).

Curiously, my M2s seem to be selling for more than I paid these days. Not sure exactly why but the digitals do go down in price as new models appear. You could probably buy a film leica like an M2 and then resell it later if you don't like it without much loss. Probably also true of the lens you might buy to use on it. Really the lenses are what is going to kill you. Not sure what you want for street photography, I'm guessing 35mm or 50mm (or 24mm and 35mm for the M8). My own research for landscapes led to a 50mm/2 Summicron (pre-ASPH) and a 35/2 Summicron ASPH. That's probably $3000 to $3500 worth of lenses on top of the camera you buy! I'd just buy one to start. 

Anyway, from what I have heard the Fuji X100s are great cameras so maybe you'll decide to stay with that. Good luck and let us know what you decide to do.

I've considered the 240! I won't use the video feature which the 240 includes but I'm fine with live view. Even I would use it because I use it with my x100f. The 262 is also an option, but no live view 😩So an used M10 came to my head. It costs 5565€ in Japan. I prefer 28mm lenses. I'm so used to that focal length. If I finally buy the Leica with a 28mm I could use my x100f with it 35mm equivalent fix lens. That's enough for me for street photography.

[IamTheDistance]

25 minutes ago, wda said:

Remember that with the Q you have bi-lens, even tri-lens camera. I use mine mostly at 28mm full-frame. But occasionally I select internal crop to 35mm or 50mm. In processing I can fine-tune the crop selection or even revert to the full 28mm coverage. The image quality is so good that you can feel that you have three focal lengths in one optic. There is a price to pay, but that is slight for most purposes.

Yes! That's a really good feature! Most of my pictures are taken at 28mm but it's good to have a 35mm focal length for emergencies!

[tgdinamo]

10 hours ago, IamTheDistance said:

😅

As I've read in this forum, the M10 have problems with dust inside the viewfinder and also it needs rangefinder calibration sometimes. The Q have problems with dust in the sensor. It seems that buying those cameras is risky, a lottery. I can't spend so much money for a defective or poorly designed product. What should I do? What are your experiences? 😩
😅

If you really believe M10 and Q are poorely designed products because it is possible to have these issues (which is true, even if not very likely), than I think you will do yourself a favor if you forget about Leica asap and go with something else.

[pico]

I have eleven M cameras from the IIIg to M10 and none have dust in the viewfinder/rangefinder.

 

[carbon_dragon]

I've had the M8, 9, and 10 over the last decade or so and they're aren't any more prone to collecting dust than any other digital I have had -- Canon 5D, Sony Nex-7, Sony A350, and so on. In fact they're LESS prone due to the shutter covering the sensor. And the Q should be even less so. It would have to come with the dust from the factory.

The M10 has an interesting feature where you take a picture according to the instructions while selecting dust sensing. You get a photograph with all the dust shown in a black and white image. It doesn't clean it for you though. I bought mine used and there was some dust on the sensor. Remember mine was used. I did the detect and got my image with the dust shown and then did the rocket blower thing with the camera upside down vigorously, but not touching the sensor. Then I did another detect and it looked clean.

Typically you can see dust as an imperfection in the image that is in the same position in a bunch of pictures. And you detect it best with a solid background such as sky or a white wall at a particular aperture. So  even if you don't have a means of detecting it, you can upload all your images and flash quickly between them and often you can see a spot that is there in all images, or most of them (aperture changes after all). 

Frankly I have had less issues with dust over the years in digitals than I have had with dust on my negatives.

Edited November 4, 2018 by carbon_dragon

[otto.f]

14 minutes ago, pico said:

I have eleven M cameras from the IIIg to M10 and none have dust in the viewfinder/rangefinder.

 

+1

YouAreTheDistance but I sincerely advise you to get closer to the M10, dive into it! You talk about ‘a lottery’. That is plain gossip, or what they call it today: fake news. The adjustment of the RF is only sometimes necessary after a fall and this in situations where every other camera, at least many many other camera’s would have been total loss. But of course it is cheaper to buy a $750 camera and renew that every two years. That’ll give you 20 years before you reach the break even point. You can only enjoy the Leica system if you can afford forgetting the prices they ask. The second hand value of bodies is high, but not as high as in the analogue era. You could aslo start with a used M9P from a renowned dealer. The price of an M10 is very high, higher than for an SL for instance, which is simply more allround. If you keep on looking at that price (although it is a gift) you will have difficulties enjoying that camera. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by otto.f

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11 hours ago, IamTheDistance said:

As I've read in this forum, the M10 have problems with dust inside the viewfinder and also it needs rangefinder calibration sometimes. The Q have problems with dust in the sensor. It seems that buying those cameras is risky, a lottery. I can't spend so much money for a defective or poorly designed product. What should I do? What are your experiences? 😩

In forums like this, users will very often write about all kinds of problems they have. So reading on the Internet will give you a very false impression of reality. The vast majority, who live lucky with no problems, they don't talk about it. So don't worry too much and let your heart decide, not your fear.