Finally, decided on the M-9 but some questions remain

[LyleBright]

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2 minutes ago, Topsy said:

FWIW I have in the last year bought 3 M9s from eBay, all with sensors replaced in 2017 with paperwork to support that, all 3 sellers were happy to send me serial numbers and scans of the documentation before I bought and I got the paperwork with the cameras.

Thanks for this. Since they seller can't or won't respond (it might be for good faith reasons: out of town or who knows), and since I still have doubts about the good sensor date, I guess I will have to hold off on buying. 

 

The sensor was replaced in 3-2015 but another forum user says that the fixed sensors were put out in 9-2015.

Though Leica says that the 3-2015 sensor should be a good one, I can't take the risk....

Knowledge is power. . .and I have not enough to turn against logic.

[ianman]

37 minutes ago, LyleBright said:

Though Leica says that the 3-2015 sensor should be a good one, I can't take the risk....

Be careful, I guess Leica are using the European date format, so 3/10/2018 would be October 3rd 2015, not March 10th !!

That date is tricky as it's, I think, very close to when they started using the latest, corrosion issue free, sensors. You did well to ask for clarification.

[LyleBright]

Except it was Leica in NY! I am supposing they would use the American system.

In any case, I assumed it was March 2015 so I passed on the camera. It just sold for a hair under $2,500.00. . .

Not worth the risk. But, if it was October and not March: I just screwed myself!

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by LyleBright

[ianman]

52 minutes ago, LyleBright said:

Odd. I just had a conversation with a Tech at Leica. She said that in March of 2015, when the sensor on the camera I have my eye on was replaced, that it was replaced with a sensor that solved whatever the defective sensor problem was.

This is in contradiction to the above-quoted which gives a September date -- 5 months later.

Not necessarily a contradiction. The sensor may have been replaced for a number of other reasons than corrosion.

BTW, if shipping isn't an issue, there are a couple of very low shutter actuation M9s, both with recent sensors at Red Dot in London. https://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/247-m-bodies#/model-m9&orderby=position&orderway=asc&n=2

I recommend Red Dot without hesitation.

[ianman]

7 minutes ago, LyleBright said:

Except it was Leica in NY! I am supposing they would use the American system.

In any case, I assumed it was March 2015 so I passed on the camera. It just sold for a hair under $2,500.00. . .

Not worth the risk. But, if it was October and not March: I just screwed myself!

Good point about the date !!!

I don't think you screwed yourself... too many questions remained.

[LyleBright]

Thanks very much for the Red Dot reference. I looked up the 9s you mentioned and now have an email into them...

Their price is just a hair more than the $2,500.00 M9 I just passed on. 

Red Dot looks solid. 

Question: Why do American insist on reversing the dates anyway? Is it just to be contrary? (I won't be able to sleep unless I get a proper answer...) 

[pico]

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30 minutes ago, LyleBright said:

Except it was Leica in NY! I am supposing they would use the American system.

In any case, I assumed it was March 2015 so I passed on the camera. It just sold for a hair under $2,500.00. . .

Hang in there. I got an M9 in great condition from a large Minnesota camera dealer. $1,750

[ramarren]

1 hour ago, LyleBright said:

Thanks very much for the Red Dot reference. I looked up the 9s you mentioned and now have an email into them...

Their price is just a hair more than the $2,500.00 M9 I just passed on. 

Red Dot looks solid. 

Question: Why do American insist on reversing the dates anyway? Is it just to be contrary? (I won't be able to sleep unless I get a proper answer...) 

Why do Brits use miles per hour and sell gasoline by the liter?

[Mr_Snap]

Hey Lyle,

I can vouch for Red Dot, I've bought and sold lots there.

I'm going to throw you a curve ball now - have you considered an M240? Red Dot have two bodies starting at £2300 / $2995. I have an M9P which still has its original sensor but is just starting to show signs of the corrosion issue; not a problem for me at the moment, I'll just keep shooting it until it needs to go in for replacement. If I was looking to buy an M body today I'd buy an M240 over an M9 and save all the hassle. There's just not enough price difference to stress about it.

Good luck with whatever route you take, they are special cameras and you'll love shooting with it once you've got one in your hands.

[ianman]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

gasoline

 Presumably you mean petrol 😁 

[pico]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

Why do Brits use miles per hour and sell gasoline by the liter?

Because mph is an Imperial metric. Dinna vorry about the liter because they still measure economy by miles per gallon. We can argue about their 'gallon' next, then Whitworth metrics, also Imperial. (Our tripod sockets are Whitworth!)

Edited October 18, 2018 by pico

[LyleBright]

1 hour ago, Chris197 said:

I'm going to throw you a curve ball now - have you considered an M240? Red Dot have two bodies starting at £2300 / $2995. I have an M9P which still has its original sensor but is just starting to show signs of the corrosion issue; not a problem for me at the moment, I'll just keep shooting it until it needs to go in for replacement. If I was looking to buy an M body today I'd buy an M240 over an M9 and save all the hassle. There's just not enough price difference to stress about it.

Thanks Chris. I am an M4-P shooter -- film obviously -- that switched to M43rds (digital). I thought of getting back into film but ... I feel it might not happen. BUT, I really like shooting Leica-style: rangefinder, etc. Plus I have all my lenses.

What I want is a camera that shoots like a Leica. I went with the M9 because the M8 with a smaller sensor would not shoot my lenses full frame. 

However, if the M240 will shoot the same, I have no good reason not to use it. 

As you see, this is all fairly new to me (selecting a digital Leica). 

I now have a line on an M9 with a certified new sensor and a very low shutter count. Around $2,700.00 (gulp) not including shipping and import cost (if any). 

If an M240 were available here in the US I might consider it. 

Can you say a few words about it? I hear it is a 'more modern version': more options I guess.

 

[ianman]

The big difference between the M9 and the following Ms is the sensor. The later models use a CMOS rather than the M9s CCD. CMOS comes with a bunch of features, which you may or not find useful, such as LiveView and video. CMOS can also handle higher ISO. Even collectively all those features are appealing to me, I prefer my M to be devoid of features I would not use. The M240 also has LED illuminated framelines but no frameline selector.

A controversial issue is the image quality difference between the M9's CCD and the CMOS. The CCD being supposedly "warmer" and more "film-like". This is a view to which I adhere but that being said, I do not have much experience with CMOS based Ms. So I would choose an M9 with a 2017 sensor over an M240 any day of the week.

Edited October 18, 2018 by ianman

[ramarren]

1 hour ago, ianman said:

 Presumably you mean petrol 😁 

Of course. I’m an American.

[ramarren]

38 minutes ago, ianman said:

The big difference between the M9 and the following Ms is the sensor. The later models use a CMOS rather than the M9s CCD. CMOS comes with a bunch of features, which you may or not find useful, such as LiveView and video. CMOS can also handle higher ISO. Even collectively all those features are appealing to me, I prefer my M to be devoid of features I would not use. The M240 also has LED illuminated framelines but no frameline selector.

A controversial issue is the image quality difference between the M9's CCD and the CMOS. The CCD being supposedly "warmer" and more "film-like". This is a view to which I adhere but that being said, I do not have much experience with CMOS based Ms. So I would choose an M9 with a 2017 sensor over an M240 any day of the week.

Having had and used 3 digital Ms extensively (M9, M-P240, and M-D262), aside from the M9’s odd JPEG color palette, almost useless LCD, sensor corrosion issues, poor battery life, and poor responsiveness, the raw files render out to be identical other than the M9’s lower resolution and very poor high ISO performance. 

The M-D has become my favorite because it is the simplest—having no options at all—and lacks nothing while having excellent responsiveness and the best viewfinder of these. In essence, the M-D is everything I wanted in an M and nothing I didn’t.

[ianman]

I agree about the LCD being far from best, but I barely use it to be honest. I will sometimes chimp to have a look at tricky exposure situations, but never ever trust it. Other than that it does its job for settings etc. But battery life? What wrong with it? I've never had any issues except when I bought a third party el-cheapo battery. My batteries last ages, although I admit I'm no machine-gun type photographer. I can't imagine ever needing more.

[LyleBright]

19 minutes ago, ramarren said:

The M-D has become my favorite because it is the simplest—having no options at all—and lacks nothing while having excellent responsiveness and the best viewfinder of these. In essence, the M-D is everything I wanted in an M and nothing I didn’t.

By the time you folks finish with me I will have to buy an M10. Heh heh heh.

 

[ianman]

12 minutes ago, LyleBright said:

By the time you folks finish with me I will have to buy an M10. Heh heh heh.

You may want to wait another week, apparently there's a new one being announced on the 23rd 🙂

Seriously, you are going to get many different opinions here. Of course. People want/need different things. I have no or little interest in bells and whistle features. No need for wifi, video, LiveView, EVF, mirrorball, coffee maker, etc. So have never had the urge to change (some will say upgrade) to a newer model. I'm extremely happy to be using the M9 for 9 years now.

Some consider the M9 as "a classic". I don't know if I agree with that, but I've never heard it said about the M240.

[Jean-Michel]

Hi again. I have and use both an M9 (with a pristine new sensor!) and an M-P (240). I use them interchangeably, I much prefer to switch cameras rather than lenses, so with two bodies I am happy to have two lenses available at the same time. The M-P does have the preview lever and while almost never used it is a familiar item, as it was on all my film M’s. The files from both cameras are more than just fine to produce prints as large as 20 by 30 inches - I print on a 17 and a 24 inch printer only, so I have no experience in producing lager prints. The M-P does produce better file at higher ISO. 

The live view, and EVF, and the integrated level are invaluable  for some of the work I do. 

The ccd vs cmos discussions are, in my view, is close to meaningless. The M9 has a ccd, and is a great image making camera; the cmos-based later M’s are equally great image-making machines. The 18 vs 24 megapixels do make a difference, but how important depends on the size of your prints, and prints are the only things that will endure. Still, today I would be buying an M10-P (for the integrated level and quieter shutter).

In the end, whichever model you purchase will serve you well.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Jean-Michel

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ramarren]

1 hour ago, ianman said:

I agree about the LCD being far from best, but I barely use it to be honest. I will sometimes chimp to have a look at tricky exposure situations, but never ever trust it. Other than that it does its job for settings etc. But battery life? What wrong with it? I've never had any issues except when I bought a third party el-cheapo battery. My batteries last ages, although I admit I'm no machine-gun type photographer. I can't imagine ever needing more.

With the M9, I always had three batteries with me because I needed to change batteries frequently, almost always at least once per day's session. With the M-D, I only have two batteries and nine times out of a dozen don't even consume one full charge in a week of sessions. I shoot about the same way with both cameras. 

Sadly, the CL has a smallish capacity battery too. Luckily, unlike the M batteries, they're a fairly common type and aftermarket ones are easily available and not expensive. I carry four...