My M8 Test Drive.

[terjons]

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This is my first posting on any forum although I have studied all the M8 posts i could find with much interest for the last few months. Its fair to say that up until Thursday I have obsessed over this camera! I am a long time M user so I`m familiar with all things Leica and rangefinder. On Thursday I took an M8 test drive in London. The shop was excellent and gave me the camera for 24hrs instead of the stated 3 hrs – pretty amazing, and it was free having shown them my M6 passport! It was black with a silver 35mm f2 cron (coded and filtered). Silver lens on black body looks great. I had my own sd card, 35mm 1.4 lux & cv 28mm 1.9.

Prior to the test drive my main concern was noise at higher ISO`s. Image quality generally, colour rendition, metering, viewfinder, usability etc, etc I took for granted – they would be superb, why would`nt they be. If you can sense a “however” coming, you are right – I am left as confused as ever about this camera! There are several possible reasons for my – and I hate to use the word in relation to the M8 – dissappointment. Firstly my expectations were probably way too high although from what I have seen & read here and elsewhere I think I was being realistic! Secondly, maybe my eyes need testing!!! The focus was off in 80% of my 253 frames! In portraits I focused on the eyes and got nice sharp ears! And I`m up for taking the blame here – it really could be my eyes! Thirdly, and related to my second point, the camera has a focus issue (I doubt it for a shop demo model but the guy in the shop had told me that the battery had only been charged 3 times, so it was is relatively un-used. Its not a Leica-only dealer). Generally, i was dissappointed with battery life of 8hrs. Is that normal/acceptable? I did`nt do a lot of reviewing. The 24hr test period was great but it was back in its case for 2/3 thirds of it! The brightlines where also an issue for me, if I framed things dead center they came out close to the right or bottom of frame depending on portrait or landscape format. And quite considerably. I was able to compensate for this once I realised but for £3000? Anyone else found this?

My main issue was the one I wanted to check most of all – noise. Don`t get me wrong, I am fully aware that grain exists in film stock aswell – I do a lot of available light work at gigs etc. with my M6 but there is an acceptabilty and dare I say charm about film grain compared with digital noise! Digital noise left me with the impression of a problem that has`nt been resolved yet. Maybe its me, maybe I`m not as ready as I thought I was. I did`nt like having to keep creeping up the ISO`s to get usable handheld shutter speeds and variable depth of fields! London was overcast on Thursday but not dark. Even at home in my fairly bright afternoon-lit living room I was using 640 ISO at f2 trying to get stable images hand held at 15th/s! Most of the time the lens was wide open, tightly braced to my face whilst trying to keep the noise down!!. What do you guys do – carry tripods everytime theres a vague possibility of venturing indoors?!!! I need more flexability than this. Buying a Noctilux and moving to sunny Sydney may help!!

 

This camera is a beautiful thing and I want it! Its size and handling are superb – its an M – but I simply can`t go there based on this test. It made me question my ability to get useable/showable shots. Questioning and pushing oneself is a good and valueable exercise but I felt like a fraud when viewing my files. I don`t want a 5D, its huge and takes away the thought process, the discretion,the pleasure and the artisry, so I won`t go there either. I am thinking of trying another test drive, even a very quick one, at a different dealer with a different camera. Even if only to settle my unease about the off focus and make me get my eyes checked!!!

 

One final point, the guy in the said he had only had 2 previous takers for the test drive!! It really is a great oppurtunity for anyone with access to a UK participating dealer.

 

Thank you for your time. I will post samples when I work it out, I`m new to this.

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[Shootist]

welcome to the forum.

 

Take your M6 and puit it on a tri pod and set up a image with defined line at the sides/top/bottom of the frame lines for the lens you are using at about 10-15 feet away from you. Take a shot and before you tear down what you just shot develope the film. Look closely and the negitive, or print, and tell me that the lines that corresponded with the frame lines line up and that the images is at least centered. I think you will find it is not.

Now take that same negative, hopefully it was shot at ISO 800 and or developed at ISO 800, and make a print 8.5x11 inches and then look at the grain on the print and compare it to a M8 shot at ISO 640 ( ISO 640 in Leica world is really 800).

[carstenw]

Terry, more or less in order:

 

- Did you use IR filters on the lenses? Otherwise the colours might be off.

- The metering of the M8 is like the M7, and requires some learning to perfect.

- The frames are more off than past Ms, because Leica set them up at the near limit this time, whereas they used to set them up for 1m. There are rumours that Leica will make it optional at some point.

- Do you have the correct diopter? Otherwise focusing is a gamble.

- The focusing may be off on that camera, but that doesn't condemn the concept. Mine works great.

- The battery is not that long-lasting. Most of us have two or three. That's life. 250-300 photos.

- The noise is more objectionable on the back LCD, or at 100% on your monitor than you can see with a negative. You should compare prints.

- Noise is also highly sensitive to raw development program.

- JPG is not recommended at the moment, because the high quality is not high quality enough. This may be rectified with the next firmware update.

- The shutterspeed issue compared to a film M should be the same. You may have to get used to the three-stage shutter release button, which has a worse feel than the M6, but once you get used to it, you should have the same response. Note that digital is so sharp (no overlapping grain particles) that you will see slight wobbling easier. Again, you should compare prints to be fair.

 

For the next test drive, make sure you try out the diopters and see that you use the right one. Get a different camera, and make sure that the dealer tries it out and says it is perfect before you accept it. Note that he should be able to shoot several shots at different distances with different lenses and nail them all. Then you know you can trust it.

 

Good luck!

[terjons]

thank you for your comments. i take on board what you say. for the record, the lens was ir filtered & coded and i shot raw. i did try out my own uncoded/filtered lenses but was aware of the possible side effects. i appreciate that with regards shutter speed & iso the m8 should behave like any other, it just seemed to behave differently! 8 hrs may not have be long enough to test fully. maybe naively, i expected to pick up the m8 and "know" it instantly and that is probably my mistake. i had`nt anticipated the learning curve involved.

 

thanks again. i do really want this camera to be right for me!!

[marknorton]

Yes, welcome to the forum. The M8 delights and frustrates in equal measure but where would the fun be if you could master it in an afternoon? I've spent today practicing with just my 28/2 (fab!) and Nocti (defintely improved if you use a focus magnifier).

[farnz]

Terry,

 

Also check that the camera's firmware has been updated to 1.102 because noise at 640 and 1250 was significantly improved with this update.

 

Remember that you need to meter for the highlights so many people on this forum regularly use exposure compensation of one or two thirds, which will give you more shutter speed to work with. You've probably read on this forum how much shadow detail the M8 DNGs retain so you shouldn't be concerned about underexposing. For example, I'll normally underexpose by 2 or 3 stops in preference to increasing the ISO, which gives better noise response and I can still extract the detail from the shadows in pp.

 

Hope you find your second test drive more encouraging and welcome to the forum!

 

Pete.

 

Pete.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Terry if you get a chance take a look at the stuff I shot in Germany from a technical level, there are many types of lighting and ISO's to see what the M8 can do. i shot everything on AWB and processed in lightroom and never WB any of of it. Pretty much straight out of the camera shooting Raw. Many Noctilux shots also and also a lot of ISO 640 stuff. Most shots i was in A mode. i really was just playing around but it does give you a good impression of lighting conditions and ISO levels and i agree you need more than 8 hours with this. Here is one with a Noctilux wide open at ISO 640. Than take a look at the rest if you want just to give you a good idea. i used many lenses even a 135 apo. Link is in my signature

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Another ISO 640 shot at 1/8th with a WATE lens

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[gogopix]

Dear Terry

Guy's 640 shots are amazing the top one was one of my picks for top 5. I didnt even realize it was Noct at 1 and 640.

 

If you want to push, check the 1250 shots (1/2s) with ambient light in my high ISO thread. It may (or may not :-) ) tempt going there for even better control in very low light.

 

But you will really grow with this camera.

regards

[terjons]

thanks to you all for your comments (and shots, guy). i was expecting to be thrown to the dogs for my negativity (nay-sayers don`t fair well in many forums!!) but they were honest opinions which i hope i can do resounding 180 on in the very near future.

 

regards

 

terry

[stunsworth]

Terry, if you don't like the camera then that's ok, it's allowed. Only a fanatic would say that a camera is idea for everyone <grin>.

 

One thing that I think Guy's street shot above shows is that the camera's white balance 'out of the box' isn't always the best that there is, particularly under artificial light. Here's an ISO 640 shot I took a couple of weeks ago. The original is pretty yellow, like Guy's, but shooting RAW it's very easy to correct. Also bear in mind that 'noise' that can look pretty bad viewed at 100% magnification can look ok when printed. After saying that I haven't used any noise reduction in this ISO 640 shot.

 

 

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Good point Steve, yes i really did nothing to improve it out of the box either and sometimes it is okay to see a street scene like that but i know leica is working on better WB out of the box and also working on improving functionaity. So improvements will come too , first make sure 1.102 is in the camera to begin with at least that is the best firmware to date and latest also. As a beta tester for Leica and involved with them in conversation with them on a regular basis , leica is working hard to improve the M8.

[stunsworth]

Guy, white balance always seems to have been the Achilles' heel of the DMR and M8. _But_ it's easy to correct as long as you are aware of the issues - which isn't to say that it shouldn't be better.

 

Regarding noise the M8 isn't as good as my Canon 5D, there's no doubt about that in my mind, but it's still a lot better than say Ilford Delta 3200 or Fuji Neopan 1600. Here's a full frame M8 2500 shot.

 

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

No it should be better and they do know that and was told they are working on it . For Raw shooters not a big deal but the jpeg shooters do need better AWB and less compression to the files , that was something we talked about also. Some of this just takes time and firmware is tricky you fix one thing and three other things go south, so there being careful about what they do. Were talking German engineers and hell if they could make it run on 4 wheels they would figure a way to do it.

[robertwright]

the leica test drive is likely to disappoint, a few hours with the camera will not show you what it can do. Imagine if you had a day to decide whether or not to buy a 35,000$ phase back?

 

For me the only way it made sense was "I have tried the rest.." so I know what the parameters are. I know I can get lower noise on the 5D. I know I can get more megapixels on the mkiids. I know I can spend a ton of money on a medium format back also. But I also know I like rangefinders, after having used them a ton. And I like medium format color film, 400 or 800, I like available light, and I like manual focusing. So the M8 starts to become the only game in town.

 

I have had the camera since february and I am still finding tricks in raw processing that give me what I want. The camera is definitely a two speed camera, 160 and 640. there is something about the signal amplification that you see major jumps at these two points, and you can underexpose at 160 and push to gain an effective 320 or 640. It is really remarkable. 640 is the other "native" speed point i would call it, and you can push it +1 or +2 better than setting 1250 or 2500. In bw only there is more latitude to the 1250, it us very usable, and pushable. 2500, imo, at this point is unsuitable. Maybe in future firmware upgrades they will refine it.

 

what you have to get used to with the M8 ( and really all digital cameras) is how to interpret what you see on screen and what the histogram is telling you in relation to the raw processor you want to use...+...what a print looks like at a typical size from that calculation. A test drive is not going to show you that, and in my experience, the M8 outperforms all dslr's I have used owing to 1. the lenses, and 2. the lack of AA filter. If I have to choose between noise and mush, I will take noise, providing it shows detail, and detail is what the M8 has over similar mp cameras.

 

Battery life I have found to be very good, I was out all day today, 9+ hours, on one battery, and I mean all of those 9+ hours. I died before the battery died if you know what i mean. I have three batteries but in practice I only need two. the third is the hail mary.

 

lastly I really like the lack of automation, the fact that I have to use my head 90% of the time to make pictures. this alone is worth the price of admission.

 

good luck.

[Guest localplayer]

hey, i'm no pro like Guy and some of the others....but i bought the 8 at my local dealer, charged it, jumped a plane for japan and spent a bit of time taking some shots at a busy train station in Tokyo to give it a workout--old 35 2.0 non coded lens and simple jpegs--you can check it out at:

 

Zenfolio | rb stanton

 

Okay just snap shots with a new camera..but what fun. many shot way up into the ISO's--1250 or whatever that translates into in "leica speak". I put the specs on the shots, so you can read them on the top of the image. maybe they look like garbage to you, but i didn't think i had the focus issues you did--if fact the opposite, with a rangefinder you KNOW you are in focus versus a canon 1D series you never know. okay, so I was shooting underground a lot, with really lousy lighting but the camera was a champ. these were adobe profiled so they are bland. no tripod, just point and shoot. so, i just got a 28 2.8 the other day(coded whatever that is) and it is even sharper--ouch. so make sure you match the little diamond in middle and fire away. great point and shoot camera. btw the meter works great if you know how to find an 18% surface. the awb sucks, but anyone who shoots for bucks knows they are supposed to custom wb 'all the time'-and the 8 is super simple. (if you don't believe me talk to your buds who shoot video for the networks--now wb, no job) 8 hours on a battery??? that is rock and roll. if you shot canon 1Ds' or 1D's you know that you were always carrying around whooper batteries in your back pocket to swap them out all the time---really stretched out a lot of levi's that way. btw, ever carry a couple canon chargers to a job? the leica charger is butt-ugly but not that bad in size and the batteries are little dudes--easy to grab a bunch and take'm with you.

 

okay, the m8 doesn't walk on water, but kinda does what it is supposed to do. now they need to fix that lame turn on/off switch, but i LOVE the editing features--the little wheel and button combos. maybe you should give it another go before skipping out on it.

[lars_bergquist]

Bob,

that 4th version (I guess it is this one you have) is one of my favourites too. I too use it uncoded but with filter. And nobody has ever complained about focus issues, though I think in most cases these complaints are out of proportion or self-inflicted.

 

An interesting thought is that many older lenses, such as this one, seem to perform better with the M8 than with film, probably mainly (but maybe not entirely) because of cropping out the weaker edges and corners.

 

Still, to return to the original message and thread theme, flying a rangefinder is a different game from the SLR-auto-everything one. It does take training. Yes, it is like flying a sailplane or an ultralight by the seat of your pants – you are alive!

 

The old man from the Age of the Red Baron

[London Lad]

Terry, I think focusing is an issue with this camera. I have been through 5 of my dealers M8s. 4 have severe back focus and one focuses reasonably well (not perfectly) but has an electrical fault (missing viewfinder led segments)

 

I am currently waiting for a 6th camera to be sent to my dealer from Leica that has allegedly been precisely adjusted. We will see.

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[ChrisC]

Terry - On the face of it the 'test' drive seems a good idea, however my experience is similar to Robert Wright's who suggests it can take a lot longer to get the feel of the camera. Despite extensive 6x7 and 6x9 rangefinder experience I have taken many weeks of [mostly] playing, fiddling, cursing, and dumping before feeling at ease with the M8.

 

The camera is a sweet instrument in the areas [outlined by others] of greatest importance, and over time it's design warts tend to diminish their irritation. It is far from perfect but keep it in context; compare the M8 side by side with a 1DS2 or a D2x, and cost the camera properly by including any savings you might make on chiropractic bills for SLR Shoulder.

 

..................Chris

[Joe Mondello]

Hi Terry, Welcome to the Forum.

 

I started out as an M shooter as a teenager in the 60s and shot Nikon in the 70s through the mid-90s and then a variety of digicams of various quality over the past decade.

 

The M8 is definitely a home-coming for me, and yes I think I was also surprised at how much I had to learn from and about this camera. And I'm still learning after 100 days.

 

My advice (you didn't ask did you) would be to pick up Bill Vann's very slightly used M8 and then if after a month or two or three you decide its not for you, you'll likely be able to sell it without a loss of any significance.