Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 11, 2007 Share #21 Posted July 11, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Now the camera on the Iphone is actually not bad but of course the leica kills it. Hell we have to say that. ROTFLMAO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Hi Guest guy_mancuso, Take a look here How has the M8 sold?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 11, 2007 Share #22 Posted July 11, 2007 Just shot this and e-mailed it to myself Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/28692-how-has-the-m8-sold/?do=findComment&comment=303458'>More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 11, 2007 Share #23 Posted July 11, 2007 There is this nagging question in the back of my mind: when Leica begins to use a different (more detailed?) sensor in (some) camera back, will the M8 be upgradable? I'm almost certain that the M8 won't be upgradeable however, it would be a great gesture for Leica to offer us M8 adopter a shortcut to upgrade, either it's a trade-in program or rebate stuff ... some food of thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 11, 2007 Share #24 Posted July 11, 2007 Just shot this and e-mailed it to myself I'm seeing some bad cyan corners here, Guy ... looks like it's an universal problem with all digicams even with the iPhone. Now, how did you figure out an IR cut filter for this baby? LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 11, 2007 Share #25 Posted July 11, 2007 I'm almost certain that the M8 won't be upgradeable however, it would be a great gesture for Leica to offer us M8 adopter a shortcut to upgrade, either it's a trade-in program or rebate stuff ... some food of thought. We really don't know what they will do and what Kodak will do, but, academically speaking, an "upgrade of sensor" wouldn't be impossible by principle... it is a (delicate) assembly of a component, after all... remember fabolous Mark Norton thread ? Would Kodak produce say a 16MP sensor with identical dimensioning/assembly... that's about, for what I have seen, the way followed by Hasselblad with 22-31-39 MP sensors (from Phase One ? I do not know if Phase One manufactures the CCD in itself) : clearly, you have an example of different MP sensors that can be assembled in the same mech "receptacle"... they have more space, of course... Hassy back is not a Leica body... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 11, 2007 Share #26 Posted July 11, 2007 I have never in the history of digital photography seen a company upgrade a sensor to a new, more capable version. I am not sure it is even possible to do, given the amount of customization that goes into a body. I don't think we should expect such a thing. However, if Leica ever figures out how to beat the IR problem with a sensor-based filter, I hope and expect that they would offer an upgrade, perhaps at cost. I am fully prepared to pay for my next digital sensor upgrade in the form of a new camera. I don't see how Leica could survive otherwise. R&D is not cheap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olsen Posted July 11, 2007 Share #27 Posted July 11, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) So it seems the number until "now" is about 12.000 M8 ? (Guy, WHEN did you speak with Solms' friends of yours ?) ; let'say 12.000 in 7 months ? (Nov 06 - May 07)... some comparision (not with i-phones....) Leica I : 4500 pieces ca. in 1926-27 (do not know the dates, seem to remember "spring" of '26 (or was it the "Leipzig Spring Fair" announcement and prod time after ?) Leica M3 : about 40.000 in the year of introduction (1955); consider.. times in which Leica was still simply the 35mm camera par excellence... no serious SLRs. Leica M5 : 33.900 in five years '71-'75... RFs were definitely out of fashion... and M5 was not anyway much appreciated by Leica enthusiasts. Leitz was sunking... Leica M4-2 and M4-P : 39.500 in about TEN years ... small volumes... but the classic RF continued to sell... lot of corporate / propriety changes and finally.. Leica M6 : 14.000 in the first 12 months of production (from summer '84) , subsequently, in the mean, about 10.000/year can be approx considered as the "standard product volume" of the camera that, IMHO, has definitely convinced someone that A LEICA would have to continue to exist. With this figures in mind, the numbers of M8 are promising... of course, in industrial terms (cost of parts & raw materials, supply chain, assembly methods...), is a product very different from M6 , but I think that, after the first year of ramp/up, a mean volume in the range of 12 to 15.000 year could be satisfactory BUT... there is the problem of digital vs. film... very different time of obsolescence... Leica Co. could survive (an not very well) on a volume of 10.000/year M6, almost unchanged for 15 years about... how long shall it last the current M8 ? Will they have the resources to reinvest on some "M9" when the market shall force them to do ? Very interesting figures. These point to that the total potential M8 sales figure could be 30.000 units and that, may be, the sales figure so far is closer to 20.000. But it is a open question if this is a survivable volume. This depends on what a premium the customers are willing to pay for digital Leicas, just because sales volumes are so low. The Leica people must work hard to develop future cameras that have qualities better than the heep of digital SLRs out there. Not easy, if possible at all. The survival of Leica also depends on other factors. Like the value of the US$ to the €. European exporters dependent on the US market, most europeen exporters are, and they are holding their breaths these days. The dollar is falling like a stone. Further; Leica needs to broaden their customer base and recrute some more young ones in new markets. Like China, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 11, 2007 Share #28 Posted July 11, 2007 Well i will say from my impressions from leica and with Steven Lee at the helm don't be expecting to see leica sitting on there thumbs for one second and you will see new stuff down the road, no question in my mind. Start saving now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted July 11, 2007 Share #29 Posted July 11, 2007 I have never in the history of digital photography seen a company upgrade a sensor to a new, more capable version. . Didn't Kodak offer a sensor upgrade for their full frame SLRn? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 11, 2007 Share #30 Posted July 11, 2007 Didn't Kodak offer a sensor upgrade for their full frame SLRn? Kodak has done it several times with different cameras, all at users' costs. It was NOT only a sensor upgrade though, effectively the motherboard and almost all peripheral electronics were swapped out so it was really a new camera in the old clamshell. I doubt this is feasible with the M8 but if Leica could make it, then let it happen ... I only hope that we could get a break ... in terms of cost. As of saving for the next big thing, I'm afraid the speed I could make some money simply couldn't catch up with Leica's paces of price hiking, which now seems to be a routine practice, once every 6 months Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted July 11, 2007 Share #31 Posted July 11, 2007 I have never in the history of digital photography seen a company upgrade a sensor to a new, more capable version. I am not sure it is even possible to do, given the amount of customization that goes into a body. Exactly that was done by the Kodak with the SLRn, which was built on a Nikon body. Sent the body in with $1500, and they replaced the original sensor with a sensor from a different fab. This was what, three or four years ago? Full frame 14mp chip in a Nikon body, too; but it had some issues. If Lieca sold ~12,000-15,000 copies of the M8 so far -- and especially if it's closer to 15,000 -- then they might sell 20,000 by year end. That'd be $90 million or so, plus the money from all those new lenses, and I bet they're also stripping the shelves bare of back stock. Even with the money they spent on fixes, and the dealers' share, they will have a few bucks to spend. When they do produce an M9, I'm not sure it'll need much work: an upgraded sensor and some different software, but the mechanicals wouldn't have to change much. In fact, I'm not sure that their fans would stand for many changes. I wouldn't be surprised if they were out right now licensing a bunch of M8 accessories. Guy would probably go for a black leather M8 shoulder-holster...a Leica version of John Milich's WATE filter adapter, with "Leica" stamped on it, would probably go for about twice as much as John is charging...in fact, he might want to get in touch with them about a deal... JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted July 12, 2007 Share #32 Posted July 12, 2007 Well the future is looking rosy. From what Leica management has said they have big plans for the R10 - which should be the next big launch. If they can duplicate the success of the M8, Leica will be a very different company. In fact since the DSLR market dwarfs the RF market the R line could potentially outsell the M if it's done right. Kudo's to the new management for bringing Leica back to life. Digital is a lot more fun with a digital M. Canon and Nikon make great DSLR's but I could never really warm to the ergonomics. They were like my copier and fax machines: got the job done but not a tool I really became one with. What I missed about film wasn't the film but the film cameras like the Leica M, Rollei TLR, Plaubel 670 and Hassy 203FE. It was just a different working experience. For me since the advent of auto focus and electronics the user interface has been going down hill. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 12, 2007 Share #33 Posted July 12, 2007 The Kodak deal is interesting. Was it really an upgrade, or more about replacing a problematic chip with a better one of similar spec? Anyway, I am not sure it is wise to use Kodak as an example here, considering their fairly catastrophic time in the DSLR market. We wouldn't want Leica to emulate that failure. Like I said, I don't think it is unfair to expect customers to buy the next camera to get the next great thing. I do hope that Leica will find an optional way for us to deal with the IR problem, via an improved IR filter for the sensor, and then to offer this upgrade at cost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.