Leica M7 now discontinued

[willeica]

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There is a large cottage industry in China, which has grown up making spares for electronic bits and/or repairing circuit cards, where manufacturers no longer care to supply or charge through the nose for doing so. At the lower strata of Chinese society, there is not the level of disposable wealth to support a throw away society, so they have had to evolve their own system of make and mend.  Why not take advantage of this to source electronic spare parts for our cameras. They might not meet Leica's no doubt stringent standards for the cards when originally specified but it would be better than having a brick instead of a camera. 

 

It would not be hugely complicated for the three major Leica repairers in the USA to get together with the four or five in Europe to source for example, M6TTL cards from Asia. In fact it could be a profit centre for them. I was offered a new and unused Platinum M6TTL anniversary kit with the matching Summilux 50 V.3 at a very good price. Did I buy it? No because a camera which has been sitting unused for 20+ years is highly likely to develop circuit card problems and then you are totally stuck. I bought an M7 instead, on the basis that it was still in production  . 

 

Wilson

 

Wilson, a thought occurs. To paraphrase Enzo Ferrari, there might be a possibility of a starting a 'garagiste' Leica movement with owners using parts made outside the Leica empire. In the past there was such a concept in the era of purely mechanical cameras. I have a few 'non standard' parts on the Leicas in my vintage collection.

 

William

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[wlaidlaw]

Wilson, a thought occurs. To paraphrase Enzo Ferrari, there might be a possibility of a starting a 'garagiste' Leica movement with owners using parts made outside the Leica empire. In the past there was such a concept in the era of purely mechanical cameras. I have a few 'non standard' parts on the Leicas in my vintage collection.

 

William

 

William,

 

I would agree but I think it would need to be driven by the existing Leica repairers. They know what parts are unavailable and what needs to be made. For example there are various people now making the semi silvered image combining mirrors for Barnack rangefinders, after Leica stopped supplying them. Alan Starkie has a sheet of semi silvered optically flat glass, from which he can cut mirrors as required. If the 7 or 8 worldwide Leica repairers could say for example, between us we have a pool of 25 M6TTL cameras, needing a new circuit card, that would be sufficient to approach a small asian circuit board maker. It would need the blessing of Leica, as realistically the original circuit diagram and specs would be needed. However, if Leica are neither interested nor prepared to arrange the re-supply of obsolete parts, it would be a strange "dog in the manger" attitude if they said: "we are not prepared to help with other sources making these unavailable parts." 

 

Wilson

[pico]

You can't even buy a spare circuit card and tuck it away for future use, as they deteriorate more quickly if not powered up.

 

I did not know that. Bummer. I put both my M7s in storage with batteries removed hoping it was best.

Real bummer!

[wlaidlaw]

I did not know that. Bummer. I put both my M7s in storage with batteries removed hoping it was best.

Real bummer!

 

Jac, 

 

Powering them up regularly is better. I tell my wife to switch on my Krell amplifier on my audio system in the UK every month or so for a day, to keep the electrolytics in good condition. Given the low cost of the 1/3N lithium batteries for the M7 nowadays, it is worth keeping them with batteries in and powering up every so often. I think I am correct in saying that the 1/3N batteries for the M7 are cheaper in actual money, not inflation corrected, than they were in 2002. I can now buy 2 of them for €3-50 whereas I seem to remember them costing £2 each when I first got an M7 in late 2002. Lithium batteries have come down amazingly in cost. I have just bought a strip of 5 x 2032 3V coin cells for my Moore & Wright digital vernier calipers, for €4. 

 

Wilson

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

I had an M7 about ten years ago. No problems other then a a bit of chrome falling off after it banged a door jamb.  Put a lot of kodachrome through that camera before that film disappeared too.  

[pico]

Powering them up regularly is better.

 

Wilson the batteries are dirt cheap at our farm and firearm supplier. No problem. I was following the M7 instructions to remove the batteries but it had no other mention of best practice for serious long-term storage. Silly me to presume Leica's recommendation

 

Thank you.

Edited May 26, 2018 by pico

[wlaidlaw]

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Jac, 

 

I suppose Leica's thinking was historic from when mercury cells did horrible things when they leaked when flat (i have a dead Minox C which bears witness to that from a PX27 cell). I have never had a lithium/manganese dioxide battery leak and when used in low current devices like an M7, their self discharge rate is close to zero, so if not actually left switched on, they last for at least 5 years. The alarm system in my French house is powered by 6V lithium manganese cells. I am just waiting for the third set over 16 years to be installed and they are constantly on (sadly it's not a DIY job as it needs the service engineer's alarm resetting tool  ) . 

 

Wilson

[M9reno]

I’m tempted to buy a second body as backup (but to use, not to store in a box). The main thing holding me back is pessimism about the future of slide film, which is my main use for the very precise shutter of the M7. My frozen stash of Fuji Velvia, and the little shrine for Ektachrome, with prayers yet unanswered, are hard reminders. Advice?

[wlaidlaw]

If you have not yet tried Agfa Precisa CT100 reversal film, I would strongly suggest that you give it a go. It was recommended to me by the professional on a Lee filters course I went on a couple of years ago and I now use it all the time. It is made by Fuji using a similar fine grain emulsion to Provia 100F but on a different substrate, which results in noticeably warmer and to my eye, richer colours than the Fuji produces. I bought 20 rolls a few days ago, in the fear that it may disappear like its Vista negative sister has done. I understand that Velvia may well disappear this year as well. I can understand why Fuji may well want to rationalise and stop making two quite similar films. I would hope that Provia at least, will be around for many years yet.

 

The bright light on the horizon is Ektachrome but I am concerned (see separate thread in film forum) by the continuing postponements in its release, taken together with Kodak's precarious financial condition. The good news is that now that my wife has gone seriously into raising livestock (dexter cattle, old spot pigs and a sheep of unknown breed, which arrived in one of our fields in the middle of the night), we are not short of freezer space with three large chest freezers in the garage. 

 

Wilson

[Anbaric]

The electronics concern me. Even if the camera stays in storage with the batteries removed, age can take its toll. I do not understand the issue thoroughly; there were mentions that manufacturers had to move from leaded solder to something that 'whiskers', degrades in time. Perhaps one of our more informed members can clarify that.

 

Removing lead, unless other measures are taken to mitigate the problem, can apparently worsen the problem of 'tin whiskers', where filaments of tin 'grow' out from solder and cause short circuits, etc.:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering

 

You reminded me of something the guy at Leica told me. Apparently the R3 is generally very reliable because they used ceramic pcb's in the circuitry, which are more robust than the type used in the R4 and subsequent models which deteriorate over time, causing connections to fail.

 

I'm not at all knowledgable about this just passing on what I was told.

 

Interesting - I haven't heard about that. I suppose it may not be obvious at the time what effect a change in manufacturing may have on longevity.

 

Electronics have written a new paradigm for consumer goods. The concept of repair is generally one that is applied early in the product cycle. After that, replacement is seen as the best 'repair'. This is true for all electronic consumer goods, including kettles, microwave ovens, television sets, phones and, of course, cameras. It seems that there is no going back on that situation at this stage. I don't know how long other forum members intend to live, but at 68 I reckon that my fully mechanical Leicas ranging from my I Model As from the 1920s to my M6 (I have an M 7 as well) will see me out. I am not sure, though, how long my electronic Leicas will last, although, ironically, my M10 is now back in Wetzlar having its broken lens release button repaired under warranty. With my mechanical Leicas, I don't need a meter, I can use any other meter, including the Light Meter App on my iPhone which will, of course, be getting replaced in the not too distant future. The Light Meter App should, of course, continue to exist.

 

I guess Leica is in an unusual position, where they are now marrying beautifully constructed, fully repairable and very expensive analogue technology (like a rangefinder design from the 50s) to what may be short-lived electronics. You might reasonably expect any mechanical Leica to outlast you - spending 2 months salary on a camera can more easily be justified if you can use and maintain it for the rest of your life. But you can't make this assumption about any camera that depends on electronics to operate. This problem is particularly acute for the digital Leicas, of course. The rangefinder in an M9 is probably as maintainable as the one in an M4, but the original sensor may self-destruct after a few years (and Leica has stopped replacing them for free, so the supplies are probably running down).  A 12 year old Digital-Modul-R probably still works if you can power it up, but where can you buy the batteries?

[colint544]

I sometimes wonder about how long electronics will last. I have, and regularly use, a Leica M5, and an M Monochrom mk1. The M5 was recently serviced, and the battery contact renewed (thank you, Alan Starkie), and the camera works like new. My M5 was manufactured in 1974, and it has electronics inside it, including a printed circuit board. I believe that back then, solder contained plenty of lead, and that solder now has no lead in it, leading to 'whiskering', which ultimately kills the board. 

 

My M Monochrom is almost six years old now, but I do wonder when it'll become unserviceable. The M7 possibly falls somewhere between the M5, and a modern digital M, in terms of operating life. It just seems somehow wrong to think of any M camera as something which might one day have to be thrown away.

[Guest]

Just to clarify: The M7 works in 1/60 and 1/125 without batteries.

[willeica]

Removing lead, unless other measures are taken to mitigate the problem, can apparently worsen the problem of 'tin whiskers', where filaments of tin 'grow' out from solder and cause short circuits, etc.:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering

 

 

Interesting - I haven't heard about that. I suppose it may not be obvious at the time what effect a change in manufacturing may have on longevity.

 

 

I guess Leica is in an unusual position, where they are now marrying beautifully constructed, fully repairable and very expensive analogue technology (like a rangefinder design from the 50s) to what may be short-lived electronics. You might reasonably expect any mechanical Leica to outlast you - spending 2 months salary on a camera can more easily be justified if you can use and maintain it for the rest of your life. But you can't make this assumption about any camera that depends on electronics to operate. This problem is particularly acute for the digital Leicas, of course. The rangefinder in an M9 is probably as maintainable as the one in an M4, but the original sensor may self-destruct after a few years (and Leica has stopped replacing them for free, so the supplies are probably running down).  A 12 year old Digital-Modul-R probably still works if you can power it up, but where can you buy the batteries?

 

 That is why for film work, I much prefer the purely mechanical cameras and use a separate meter. Digital cameras and film cameras with electronic shutters are tools which do not have a long term future as such. How many people here are using a phone or a laptop/PC from 2002?

 

William

Edited May 27, 2018 by willeica

[Anbaric]

I sometimes wonder about how long electronics will last. I have, and regularly use, a Leica M5, and an M Monochrom mk1. The M5 was recently serviced, and the battery contact renewed (thank you, Alan Starkie), and the camera works like new. My M5 was manufactured in 1974, and it has electronics inside it, including a printed circuit board. I believe that back then, solder contained plenty of lead, and that solder now has no lead in it, leading to 'whiskering', which ultimately kills the board. 

 

My M Monochrom is almost six years old now, but I do wonder when it'll become unserviceable. The M7 possibly falls somewhere between the M5, and a modern digital M, in terms of operating life. It just seems somehow wrong to think of any M camera as something which might one day have to be thrown away.

It looks like the M5 circuit is pretty simple, and made from standard components:

 

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/classics/forum/messages/2/18275.html?1270996894

 

So it may remain quite serviceable in the future, though CdS cells (because of the cadmium) are going the way of lead solder.

[Mark II]

How many people here are using a phone or a laptop/PC from 2002?

 

I still have computers from the 1970’s that work as well as when they were new. But they do not get used much (beyond playing nostalgic games :-) because what I need a computer for today has changed significantly.

 

Electronics can be extremely reliable, but it depends on things that are usually difficult to determine. I have several Minolta X300/700 cameras from the early 80’s, and despite a reputation for failing electrolytic capacitors they are all still ok. I strongly suspect that the electronics are more robust than the mechanics of these cameras.

 

Nothing lasts forever. I shoot with the M7 at least in part because of the confidence that it is being supported by a major manufacturer. If that becomes not the case, and I have no option but to hunt down dodgy second hand cameras or parts, it would be a lot more practical for me to switch to of the other 100’s of high quality but obsolete 35mm cameras - where parts are easier to find and replacements significantly cheaper.

[wlaidlaw]

As another example of a very electronic camera lasting well. The 139Q Contax SLR, I bought in 1984 to have a second camera to my Contax RTS2, is still working perfectly in the hands of a friend. It has had to have its film door light seals replaced when they changed to chewing gum and the weird spongy leather composite covering disintegrated like they all have. The only actual repairs it has required is for the on/off switch contacts to be cleaned and the battery terminals cleaned and re-soldered after a minor battery leakage. 

 

My oldest "electronic" Leica is a 1972 film CL and notwithstanding Alan Starkie's expert ministrations, the light meter still has a bit of a mind of its own. 

 

I understand the tin whiskering problem can be cured by adding more silver and gold to the alloy but of course it is not particularly cheap and you need a proper solder station to melt it at 295ºC. I use the Sn95 version but there is an even more expensive Sn85 version, which is used for soldering circuits on satellites and the like. 

 

Wilson

 

 

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[pgk]

Electronics can be extremely reliable, but it depends on things that are usually difficult to determine.

 

Most Fuji S2Pros cameras (2002) seem to have died - sensors had problems and overheating caused de-lamination I have been led to believe - probably because they used a lot of power (4 x AA batteries didn't last long). I have an, originally very expensive, underwater housing built for the S2Pro which is of course fully mechanical and can easily be serviced as 'standardised' spares are available from the manufacturer, but finding a working camera body is now difficult. Frustrating because the housing is fine despite having been used extensively in a corrosive environment.

[rjans]

Some dealers might have the M7 still in stock. Just checked a well known German Leica dealer: no more M7, only MP or M-A in silver or black mentioned on their website. I know they sold a black entry kit (M7 + lens) in their section “sonderangebote” (special deals) that’s also gone.

Edited May 27, 2018 by rjans

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Hallo,

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[M9reno]

Yes, but is buying at this point throwing good money after bad?

[wlaidlaw]

Fotopia in Hong Kong have a new silver à la carte M7 at $4333. I could see the point of buying a new M-P, as effectively an improved M6TTL but the M-A no. I have just bought an M4-P with an M4-2 motor, MR-4 meter and Fat 90 Elmarit, all for €750, so lets say the camera would have cost me €350 out of that lot. It needs the back door cosmetically repairing and I would assume a CLA, so lets say it will set me back around €500 to €600 at the end of the day. It will then be identical functionally to an M-A. Why would you pay over €4000 for one? 

 

Wilson