Trivial engineering, massive convenience

[thrid]

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I must confess I've never relied on the exposure latitude of film; for one thing I usually used slide film, on the other hand in B&W I've always striven for perfection. A keen disciple of the school of AA . So my exposure discipline was strict enough to carry over to digital seamlessly. However, with more loose standards I can see the call for mechanical or electronic aids. But using the M8 as intended and tightening up on exposure is far more rewarding, believe me...

 

Lose standards? Do I know you? Have you ever seen any of my work?

 

Quite often you have to rely on the exposure latitude of negative film in street photography and documentary work, when things are moving fast. There just isn't the time to meter every shot to perfection and quite often you end up off a stop or even two. It is quite common for PJ's to set their camera permanently to -1 exposure compensation and later push a stop in the RAW converter, to preserve the highlights.

 

Also, how were you executing the zone system with a Leica and 35mm roll film?

[jaapv]

Lose standards? Do I know you? Have you ever seen any of my work?

 

Quite often you have to rely on the exposure latitude of negative film in street photography and documentary work, when things are moving fast. There just isn't the time to meter every shot to perfection and quite often you end up off a stop or even two. It is quite common for PJ's to set their camera permanently to -1 exposure compensation and later push a stop in the RAW converter, to preserve the highlights.

 

Also, how were you executing the zone system with a Leica and 35mm roll film?

 

Did I say I was...? You don't have to execute the zone system fully to keep the basic concepts in mind. Btw I don't accuse anybody of loose standards when I make a general remark.

[ptomsu]

Jaap,

 

As I see it, the essence of the original M series cameras was that you could take the picture on film and, assuming it was negative film, any exposure within a stop or two of the norm could produce a usable result. Every film camera did that much; for most of the time Leica made film rangefinders, it omitted a lot of the other embellishments (matrix metering, autoexposure, viewfinder displays, motor drive). Just you and the subject, Leica would say.

 

In terms of exposure, the M8 combines into the same camera a number of things that make getting a sunlight scene on the first shot a hit-or-miss proposition, with a very slow second attempt:

 

1. Digital sensor with no tolerance for overexposure

2. Exposure compensation that can't be activated with the camera at your eye

3. Lack of autobracketing capability

4. Late 60's style centerweighted metering that can't see highlights

5. A DNG implementation that sacrifices data in the highlights in favor of shadow detail

6. A display that is hard to see in the sun

7. Slow image preview

 

By asking for the tone, I'm not asking for them to do anything really crazy; simply to restore some of the functionality of film M cameras to the M8. It's no different in theory than the flash TTL confirmation that has been around since the M6TTL. And I know from experience that there is nothing minimalist about having to check bright sunlit scenes after taking them - or about having to try to back them down in Lightroom, Photoshop, or CaptureOne.

 

On the last point, the Kodak DEC system (which carried forward to the SLR/n and /c cameras), as it was explained to me by a Kodak engineer, was created to allow early Kodak DCS camera (with no LCD viewscreens) to mimic film's latitude - and in an era where RAW was unknown (it was all TIFF back then). The problem back then was white wedding dresses and flash. It's a brilliant solution that you don't even know is working for you.

 

Dante

 

to answer your thread:

 

1. Digital sensor with no tolerance for overexposure - I never had any problem, even under extreme conditions

 

2. Exposure compensation that can't be activated with the camera at your eye - I never needed this and am taking great shots

 

3. Lack of autobracketing capability - Why would you need this? I can easily judge the right exposure in advance and with RAW you still have lot of room to adjust

 

4. Late 60's style centerweighted metering that can't see highlights - see above, center weighted is even today one of the most reliable methods, I am actually using in D2X most time, instead of Spot and Matrix, because it is fastest and most reliable

 

5. A DNG implementation that sacrifices data in the highlights in favor of shadow detail - have you ever really looked to DNG resulst of the M8? It is a perfect implementation, I was sceptical in the beginning as well and today I am convinced of this genial approach

 

6. A display that is hard to see in the sun - the display is one of the best for digital cameras, and you never got a direct feedback from a film camera

 

7. Slow image preview - well it could be fatser, but it is still fast enough for me and better than no image preview in analog.

 

Dante - man, what are you looking for ??????

 

Reading through your posts it is complaints and nothing else than compliants - so why not just let the M8 go and waste your time with something elso not as bad?

[dante]

Peter, my point is simply that if Leica is going to implement its exposure and imaging system the way it does, it would be nice to have some way of knowing - other than stopping what you are doing and looking - of knowing when the system is beyond its capabilities.

[jimowers]

Once again, I agree. This camera is as near my idea of perfection as I can get at the moment. It is light, ultra-high quality and using DNG the images are perfect even when blown up to 20x16 as I did recently. I am becoming increasingly concerned that a lot of the posts on here are made by a small number of techies (professionals?) who clearly have too much time on their hands. Let us not forget that it is the vast majority of purchasers of these cameras (who do not post presumably because they are happy) who have probably paid out a lot of money to get the camera of their dreams. Never forget that the amateurs are the ones who keep cameras such as the M8 in production.I use the A option and get fantastic exposures and am proud of the fact that it works so well in Aperture Priority mode.

[sdai]

Damn if Leica changes, damn if they don't change. LOL

[jaapv]

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Peter, this is a repeat post of another thread. I disagree, this camera is minimalistic, so things like autobracket are not suitable for the concept.

[ChrisC]

... I am becoming increasingly concerned that a lot of the posts on here are made by a small number of techies (professionals?) who clearly have too much time on their hands. Let us not forget that it is the vast majority of purchasers of these cameras (who do not post presumably because they are happy) who have probably paid out a lot of money to get the camera of their dreams. Never forget that the amateurs are the ones who keep cameras such as the M8 in production.I use the A option and get fantastic exposures and am proud of the fact that it works so well in Aperture Priority mode.

 

Jim - Well bully for you and bully for amateurs; clearly this thread cannot be of much interest to you. There is however a different opinion to yours and is contained in the original post by Dante. There are those of us who are critical of certain design aspects of the M8, we are purchasers too and I think that entitles thoughtful criticism of a product which some of us believe is not working at it's optimum. We have all benefited from operating improvements to the M8 since it's launch, and I believe this forum has played an important role in bringing the improvements about. Criticism can be healthy, and the criticism in the original post is constructive.

 

Notwithstanding your snottiness to those of us who are not amateurs; I reserve the right to enjoy what the [i.e. my] M8 does well, and criticise where I think it fails. It's what thinking customers do, or do you think improvements will come about because of happy silence?

 

..................Chris

[ptomsu]

Peter, this is a repeat post of another thread. I disagree, this camera is minimalistic, so things like autobracket are not suitable for the concept.

 

Jaap,

 

this is exactly what I say, Autobracket is not needed for this camera. It would be suitable, but I do not see the need!

[ptomsu]

Jim - Well bully for you and bully for amateurs; clearly this thread cannot be of much interest to you. There is however a different opinion to yours and is contained in the original post by Dante. There are those of us who are critical of certain design aspects of the M8, we are purchasers too and I think that entitles thoughtful criticism of a product which some of us believe is not working at it's optimum. We have all benefited from operating improvements to the M8 since it's launch, and I believe this forum has played an important role in bringing the improvements about. Criticism can be healthy, and the criticism in the original post is constructive.

 

Notwithstanding your snottiness to those of us who are not amateurs; I reserve the right to enjoy what the [i.e. my] M8 does well, and criticise where I think it fails. It's what thinking customers do, or do you think improvements will come about because of happy silence?

 

..................Chris

 

You always can critisize and even if a product is almost perfect (which the M8 is not) you still can critisize. The issue is - Leica made the M8 the way it is and I am almost sure this was the optimum they could achieve with their resources in the short time they had left to do.

 

If we are lucky and Leica finds their path into the digital future (which many of us including myself hope) then we will se future models which will be much closer to perfection. But at least for the time being the M8 is what is achievable and no discussion or debate will change that.

 

So either use it (buy it) and be happy, or just let it go and keep waiting for the perfect thing :-))

[jaapv]

Jaap,

 

this is exactly what I say, Autobracket is not needed for this camera. It would be suitable, but I do not see the need!

 

 

Sorry Peter, misunderstood!

[ChrisC]

at least for the time being the M8 is what is achievable and no discussion or debate will change that.

 

Peter - The original post in this thread contradicts your assertion. Back in January should we have accepted the camera with it's Sudden Death Syndrome, pixel overloads, green stripes and other design wonkiness without discussion or debate when many of us had paid in advance for a professional calibre camera with no sign of it's delivery date? Of course not, and most of us are pretty grateful for the improvements brought about from critical discussions in this forum.

 

So either use it (buy it) and be happy, or just let it go and keep waiting for the perfect thing :-))

 

Utterly useless advice. I have an M8 thank you and it is neither a plaything or status symbol; it is a professional instrument which can still be improved. But you are welcome to take a principled stance and refuse the next firmware release on the basis that it might improve the performance of your M8, I on the other-hand will gladly install.

 

..............Chris

[ptomsu]

Peter - The original post in this thread contradicts your assertion. Back in January should we have accepted the camera with it's Sudden Death Syndrome, pixel overloads, green stripes and other design wonkiness without discussion or debate when many of us had paid in advance for a professional calibre camera with no sign of it's delivery date? Of course not, and most of us are pretty grateful for the improvements brought about from critical discussions in this forum.

 

 

 

Utterly useless advice. I have an M8 thank you and it is neither a plaything or status symbol; it is a professional instrument which can still be improved. But you are welcome to take a principled stance and refuse the next firmware release on the basis that it might improve the performance of your M8, I on the other-hand will gladly install.

 

..............Chris

 

Chris,

 

I think you misunderstand things here. I am not saying that further improvements are not welcome, but there are several things which are iterated again and again and I am almost sure are not possible to be implemented. So it makes no sense to further ask for that - give you one example listed by Dante which is the center weighted light metering - there is NO chance to change this to spot or matrix in the current M8 incarnation.

 

Coming back to your problems with an early M8 in January - well if you buy a new product which has not proven it can fulfill waht you are looking for it simply your own fault. I agree this should not happen, especially if the product is such expensive as an M8, but if you logically analyze the possibilities for flaws in a camera built by a company who does their first own digital steps then it is not a too big surprise what happened. I bought my M8 months later, when I got the feeling that it could support all I wanted from the camera.

 

So it is a big part about setting your own expectations to be happy with the results. And sorry - only the name Leica on the product does not and cannot guarantee it will work from the beginning flawlessly.

[ptomsu]

[quote name=ChrisC;298615Utterly useless advice. I have an M8 thank you and it is neither a plaything or status symbol; it is a professional instrument which can still be improved. But you are welcome to take a principled stance and refuse the next firmware release on the basis that it might improve the performance of your M8' date=' I on the other-hand will gladly install.

 

..............Chris[/quote]

 

And BTW - if you us an M8 for professional purposes I must say you have a very high level of confidence. I love my M8 but for professional photography I would not trust it, simply because it has too many cases where it suddenly behaves wrong and definitely not in the way it should be. So again for professional usage I would trus different systems and there are enough on the market. And do not tell me you cannot do the hjob wit such a system, because what did you do the som 9 months ago, when there was NO M8?

[norm_snyder]

Dante et al,

 

As someone who once bought a plain prism Nikon F instead of the [available] Ftn, and started with LTM cameras, perhaps I am just resistant to change ["What do I need a camera with a built in meter for?]. I suppose there are those of us who would rather have photography remain a sort of black art, rather than rely on the microprocessor. Yet, I have to echo those who emphasize the simplicity of the interface. I could probably live with a switchable warning, which would be turned off along with the review function, in my case. Please--no flashing in the finder, and none on the camera visible from outside the finder, unless I want it. I feel like the M8 is already becoming conspicuous enough with the increased wind-on [shutter rewind?] noise. [Not to mention my "new" 75 Summilux v.1 with its giant lens shade.

 

Tangentially related, there is, somehow a mechanical esthetic to these cameras, such that I recall always feeling like the various add-ons spoiled the intent and execution of the design. I recall leaving my MR4 at home sometimes, just because the M2 camera was so much more elegant a design without a lump added to the top deck. While I own a couple of TA rapidwinders for my m6's, sometiimes I'll leave them off, not because the camera works better, perhaps because it works so well unencumbered by extra meters, winders, finders, lens carrying attachments, finder magnifiers....or flashing lights. This mechanical esthetic is one which informs the use of numerous devices: fine motorcycles, skeet and trap shotguns, certain automobiles, timepieces, etc.: the successful mechanical execution of a means to accomplish a specific goal, with no frills.

 

Long winded, I know, but there are reasons that this basic camera design has survived [barely] the developments of the last 50+ years. Perhaps a supplementary model, or a custom add on--just as once, one could order an M2 with, or without a self timer--or add one later at the factory.

 

Regards,

 

Norm

[AlanG]

Dante et al,

 

As someone who once bought a plain prism Nikon F instead of the [available] Ftn, and started with LTM cameras, perhaps I am just resistant to change ["What do I need a camera with a built in meter for?].

 

Why does anyone need a rangefinder? Zone focusing always worked for me. ;-)

 

I don't think Leica can keep its foot halfway through the technology door for too long before they have a shrinking market.

 

My dad once specially ordered a Honda Accord with only one speaker for the radio. He tried to get an AM only radio but apparently there were limits.

[ChrisC]

And BTW - if you us an M8 for professional purposes I must say you have a very high level of confidence.

 

Peter. Doctor. I have the ability to apply a bandaid when needed but I do not consider myself an expert in medicine. I thank you for trying to enter the expertise of my world but I doubt your qualifications. Any 'high level of confidence' I may have has been hard won over 30+ years of continued study, passion, and commitment to what I consider to be the greatest visual medium for personal expression. The M8 was designed and priced to operate as a professional instrument and I judge it's success and failures in that context. To those of us who aspire to get the best out of the M8, your assertion that 'for professional photography I would not trust it' sounds presumptuous, hollow, and unauthoritive.

 

Everyone it seems is an expert on photography, regardless of their expertise or knowledge. Maybe expert photographers should turn the tables and declare themselves experts in, say; medicine?. No, on second thoughts that's a crap idea. That would be terribly arrogant.

 

........................Chris [Degrees withheld]

[Skippy Sanchez]

...geez, i can't believe this outpouring of emotion started by suggesting a simple little beep for overexposed pictures. you guys have way too much time on your hands.

[ChrisC]

Skippy - You may be right. The weather here in the Uk is awful at the moment, and the landscape work I planned for today was washed away. Over compensating my inactivity with caffeine did not help, neither did over calming down with too much wine and giggly irreverence. Thank you for your timely admonishment. I will now see if I can find my bed, goodnight all..........

 

 

,,,,,,,,,,,,Chris

 

P.S. Could someone wake Dante up; he started it [no I didn't] Yes You did, [No I didn't] Yes you .......

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[robsteve]

Back to the question about the audible histogram. The DMR has this feature. I have only used it once to see what it did. I suspect most DMR users are the same way and Leica decided it was not a feature needed on the M8.