Trivial engineering, massive convenience

[dante]

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Am I insane or would it be great to have an audible tone from the M8 when an exposure clips the highlights?

 

Step one (80% of the result with 20% of the effort):

 

We know that the M8 can beep because it does so when you remove the SD card or bottom cover when the camera is on. So why can't it beep when the histogram would show more than some specified (either by the user or predetermined) percentage of highlight clipping? This is absolutely trivial in terms of programming but would be helpful in cutting down the need to look at the screen. The problem with using the screen to look for clipped highlights is that the screen itself is hard to see in situations where you would need to worry about the highlights. It also breaks your concentration.

 

Step two (which also should be doable):

 

The next step from there would be to have the camera's AE back off the exposure 1/3 of a stop at a time until it reaches an exposure that does not clip (at which point it beeps twice). This could be activated when the clip tone is set and the camera is in continuous mode. Think of it as intelligent auto-bracketing.

 

[The camera may be smart enough to calculate how much to back the exposure off, but I think that the trial and error method would be fine.]

 

Step 3 (if Leica's pride can stand it):

 

Get in contact with the people who designed the M8's sensor and license their Digital Exposure Correction, which changes the curves to recover blown highlights (encoding the correction in the RAW file or incorporating it in a JPG).

[jaapv]

Brilliant thinking, Dante, but I feel it somewhat surpasses the minimalistic philosophy of an Leica M.

[dante]

Jaap,

 

As I see it, the essence of the original M series cameras was that you could take the picture on film and, assuming it was negative film, any exposure within a stop or two of the norm could produce a usable result. Every film camera did that much; for most of the time Leica made film rangefinders, it omitted a lot of the other embellishments (matrix metering, autoexposure, viewfinder displays, motor drive). Just you and the subject, Leica would say.

 

In terms of exposure, the M8 combines into the same camera a number of things that make getting a sunlight scene on the first shot a hit-or-miss proposition, with a very slow second attempt:

 

1. Digital sensor with no tolerance for overexposure

2. Exposure compensation that can't be activated with the camera at your eye

3. Lack of autobracketing capability

4. Late 60's style centerweighted metering that can't see highlights

5. A DNG implementation that sacrifices data in the highlights in favor of shadow detail

6. A display that is hard to see in the sun

7. Slow image preview

 

By asking for the tone, I'm not asking for them to do anything really crazy; simply to restore some of the functionality of film M cameras to the M8. It's no different in theory than the flash TTL confirmation that has been around since the M6TTL. And I know from experience that there is nothing minimalist about having to check bright sunlit scenes after taking them - or about having to try to back them down in Lightroom, Photoshop, or CaptureOne.

 

On the last point, the Kodak DEC system (which carried forward to the SLR/n and /c cameras), as it was explained to me by a Kodak engineer, was created to allow early Kodak DCS camera (with no LCD viewscreens) to mimic film's latitude - and in an era where RAW was unknown (it was all TIFF back then). The problem back then was white wedding dresses and flash. It's a brilliant solution that you don't even know is working for you.

 

Dante

[Skippy Sanchez]

What, you want the damn camera to make MORE noise?

[cwf]

The M8 is unquiet enough, imho, and one of its joys is the relatively great simplicity of its menu structure, which more options, however laudably intended, can only complicate. Further, isn't this already fairly easy to do visually on the display?

[jaapv]

1. if you can expose slide film correctly, you can expose the M8

2. EV compensation is far more easy and fast in manual mode, M6-style

3. Autobracket? this is the anti-auto camera

4. It works fine for me..

5. I think you misinterpret the essence of the DNG algorithm. It allows for excellent shadow recovery

6.and 7 I think a considerable number of users have the review switched of and shoot the camera film-style.

[brucek]

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I think I would use my M8 more in manual mode if the camera would display the shutter speed in the viewfinder.

[norm_snyder]

I agree that the real beauty of these cameras is their simplicity. If they are used in manual mode, using the click stops of the lens and shutter speed dial provides tactile feedback of exposure compensation, without removing the camera from my eye. Jaap is right about the similarity to shooting slide film--except the M8 has signficantly more latitude than any of the E6 materials I used over the years. A tone which notified of overexposure and the associated blown highlights is something I suspect some could use--perhaps a menu item that could be left on or off at the discretion of the user [photographer?]--but then consider that many of us had for years familiarized ourselves with the film [i.e. image recording medium] we were using and its characteristics. We couldn't "chimp" to see if there was overexposure--that was the reason to bracket in the first place.

 

In the meantime, the latitude of which the M8 is capable is striking, and while not quite at the point of, in my experience, say, Ilford XP2, continues to allow shooting in conditions that, with conventional emulsions was often difficult or impossible, especially in low light.

 

--Norm

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[35mmSummicron]

Imacon MF digital backs (prior to the Hasselblad merger) had exactly the audible feature your asking for to signify proper exposure and were marketing it heavily as a unique feature against other digital backs on the market. from my experience with using one and talking to other photographers, most didnt really care for it--at the end of the day the selling point was ease of use and image quality in the photos.....not sure if the current hasselblad backs still do this or not, but i would guess most wouldnt care if they took that feature away.

 

i tend to agree with other members here that the M8 is loud enough, and if anything, needs to be made QUIETER. what makes the rangefinder camera great in my opinion is the fact that it is WITHOUT all the automated bells and whistles of SLRs. it is a thinking man's camera.

 

remember all the film leica M's that don't even have incamera metering? exposure is done through experience and educated guessing--it makes photography fun.

[wattsy]

Sorry Dante but I'll join the chorus. I appreciate that you probably view such a feature as optional with a menu option to turn it on or off but it simply strikes me as too gadgety for the M system. I never want my cameras to audibly beep at me - even if my card is full.

 

Maybe a compromise (and less intrusive) solution for a future M9 would be a small flashing dot in the viewfinder when you are blowing highlights (a bit like the flashing dot in the M7 when the DX reading is off) but even this would annoy the hell out of me. For one thing, I don't like the idea of the camera nagging me about my exposure choice. Exposure is a personal thing and I firmly believe that there are many lighting situations where the resulting image simply looks better if the highlights are allowed to do their thing.

[jaapv]

Basically it is simple: The Japanese are far more adept at installing little men under the hood of your camera to do your photograhic thinking for you The Leica cameras are about puttIng as little technological interference between the image and the photographer as possible. Any gadget and gimmick is too much. As I said, many Leica M8 users turn off their autoreview (I hate the light flashing into my eye when I am shooting anyway) and don't chimp. After the session it is early enough to give in to curiosity and look at the images.

Only in difficult lighting conditions does the histogram add any photographic value, and in those conditions there is plenty of opportunity to use it, if so desired.

[ChrisC]

.....In terms of exposure, the M8 combines into the same camera a number of things that make getting a sunlight scene on the first shot a hit-or-miss proposition, with a very slow second attempt...... I'm not asking for them to do anything really crazy; simply to restore some of the functionality of film M cameras to the M8.........

 

Dante - Excellent thread, and your 7 observations are well made; i.e. I completely agree.

It would be great to have that restored functionality but unfortunately the camera's film heritage shutter speed dial position and 1/2 stop control makes it a very user unfriendly camera to be shooting with manual metering. I would much prefer to be shooting manually than permanently be set on AP, and if that were feasible I could live with the meter as it is. It's the AP mode which accentuates the meter's shortcomings, needing strained examinations of the histogram highlight corner that I often can't see, and trips into the menu to re-set the exposure compensation. It's poor design - and I am being excessively polite.

 

Your suggestion about adding to the M8's noise to warn of highlight clipping is interesting, if it were a noise with programmable volume down to a whisper it could work.

 

I sometimes wonder if camera designers actually test their designs in the real world that photographers make their photographs, in this case the great outdoors on a sunny day when trying to see the histogram highlight corner can be exasperating. It irritates me that I have to examine the histogram under my T-shirt when I am in good light, or that I am seriously considering carrying a black cloth for tripod working so I can examine the histogram as I would examine a large format camera. The metering ought to be better. The histogram highlight corner is a design disaster.

 

I have the camera, I mostly like it, but it is a real shame there weren't better designers at work to avoid it's warts. Improvements to the M8 exposure controls would be hugely welcomed by me.

 

.....................Chris

[wattsy]

I would much prefer to be shooting manually than permanently be set on AP, and if that were feasible I could live with the meter as it is. It's the AP mode which accentuates the meter's shortcomings, needing strained examinations of the histogram highlight corner that I often can't see, and trips into the menu to re-set the exposure compensation. It's poor design - and I am being excessively polite.

 

I'm not sure if I understand what the problem is? I've used M bodies for years shooting without a histogram (always slide film) without any particular problems. If anything, with the ability to select intermediate shutter speeds, the M8 is even easier to use. For me, the histogram is just a bonus and can be useful to check an exposure in very tricky lighting situations.

[thrid]

Basically it is simple: The Japanese are far more adept at installing little men under the hood of your camera to do your photograhic thinking for you The Leica cameras are about puttIng as little technological interference between the image and the photographer as possible. Any gadget and gimmick is too much. As I said, many Leica M8 users turn off their autoreview (I hate the light flashing into my eye when I am shooting anyway) and don't chimp. After the session it is early enough to give in to curiosity and look at the images.

Only in difficult lighting conditions does the histogram add any photographic value, and in those conditions there is plenty of opportunity to use it, if so desired.

 

Well, the problem is that while the exposure range on the M8 is very good, it's not as good as negative film. So, unless you are shooting flowers or slow moving scenes, you can no longer fall back on the extra range that negative film offered. So, Dante's idea is not a crutch, but feature to deal with the limitations of current digital technology.

 

If people are bothered by an audible warning, perhaps the shutter speed read out could flash or something.

 

I think it's a good idea.

[jaapv]

I must confess I've never relied on the exposure latitude of film; for one thing I usually used slide film, on the other hand in B&W I've always striven for perfection. A keen disciple of the school of AA . So my exposure discipline was strict enough to carry over to digital seamlessly. However, with more loose standards I can see the call for mechanical or electronic aids. But using the M8 as intended and tightening up on exposure is far more rewarding, believe me...

[ChrisC]

........ I've used M bodies for years shooting without a histogram (always slide film) without any particular problems........

 

Ian - I too have shot a lot of tranny film, always medium format 6x7, or 6x9. I have learnt from scanning that a transparency can look exquisitely balanced on a light-box and examined with a good loupe, but that scanning it can reveal highlight or shadow weaknesses. I shot transparency film because that is what was demanded of me and my exposure technique was good; but all my personal work [and it is a lot] went on negative film to ensure an 'unclipped' dynamic range.

 

The digital camera review image tells us what we just pointed the camera at, the histogram shows us how good the file actually is. The highlight corner, followed by the shadow corner are the only elements of the histogram of any interest to me and I think the M8 histogram display is very poor; and at worst un-viewable in bright conditions. For me, the histogram fulfils the role of my spot meter when I shot film, but I need to clearly see it's most important information. In this respect the M8 fails me.

 

..................Chris

[dante]

Only in difficult lighting conditions does the histogram add any photographic value, and in those conditions there is plenty of opportunity to use it, if so desired.

 

And if you can't see this histogram precisely due to the lighting conditions? Or you don't have time to look at it because the environmental (or safety) conditions don't allow it? Or with human subjects, you are going to lose the shot if it takes more than half a second to try again? That was the whole point of this suggestion.

 

If the question is a warning signal (be it audible, visual, or vibratory) when there is a localized exposure problem, it's no more thinking for you than having a flashing shutter speed in an overexposure situation, a TTL exposure warning indicator, or a histogram. Or a no-card indication or a reminder that the bottom plate is off the camera.

[wattsy]

it's no more thinking for you than having a flashing shutter speed in an overexposure situation, a TTL exposure warning indicator, or a histogram. Or a no-card indication or a reminder that the bottom plate is off the camera.

 

True. However, apart from the histogram I've never personally cared for any of those listed features.

[jaapv]

Dante, then you have you basic photographic craftmanship to set you right. Just like slidefilm. It is a question of theory, practice and experience, true, but it must be mastered to get the most from this type of camera. I use my camera without metering from time to time,ignoring the little triangles. just for the fun of it - exposure is spot-on for over 90% of the time.... Use the centre -weighed meter as a semi-spot in manual mode. Red dot is exact -in that area, half lit triangle is 1/2 EV coreection, extinguishing triangle 1 EV. Move the camera over the subject watching the triangles change Find a middle grey in your photograph or use the back of your hand plus one to find zone 5. You'll soon get the hang of it without electronic crutches.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jimowers]

I agree with jaapy that it is down to basic photography skills to get your pictures right. A lot of what I have read in this thread appears to be asking Leica to redesign an excellent product. There is serious danger here of falling into the trap of 'definition of a camel is a horse designed by a committee' type of thinking. Let's get back to what is truly great about the M8 - it makes you focus on the simple skills of photography and we do not want a lot of fancy bells and whistles. That is what I for one paid a lot of money to achieve after many years of fancy SLRs with too many features.