M7 and SF40 Flash compatibility - good news!

[Jul]

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I’ve never managed to get my Metz 54 MZ3 with SCA 3502 adaptor to give HSS flashes on an M7.

With M7 speed set between 1/250 and 1/1000, flash in "M" mode, press "mode" once,

the "M" symbol is now blinking, turn the wheel one step, "HSS" appears on the screen,

press "mode" once more to stop the "M" symbol blinking.

 

If you were already achieving that, just ignore my post …

Edited June 13, 2018 by Jul

[pico]

If M9reno's post is correct it should be preserved as a sticky.

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[wlaidlaw]

With M7 speed set between 1/250 and 1/1000, flash in "M" mode, press "mode" once,

the "M" symbol is now blinking, turn the wheel one step, "HSS" appears on the screen,

press "mode" once more to stop the "M" symbol blinking.

 

If you were already achieving that, just ignore my post …

 

How do you calculate the aperture on HSS. Do Metz give an HSS flash guide number or does TTL on the M7 still work? 

 

Wilson

[Jul]

How do you calculate the aperture on HSS. Do Metz give an HSS flash guide number or does TTL on the M7 still work?

Wilson

No, TTL does not work with HSS.

 

Like in normal manual mode, the flash range is computed from

the iso and the focal length, the aperture and partial power

you've set on the flash. This range is displayed on the flash.

 

The main difference being that the shutter speed is also taken

into account for the calculation and that the range is much lower.

 

With iso 100, 85mm (no 90 in the menu), f5.6 and 1/1000th of a second,

the range displayed is 0.8m, it would be 1.5m with f5.6 and 1/250th.

[M9reno]

Jul, thank you very much for both your posts.

 

I have tried what you said in your first post (#21) and can get the shutter to fire at the high speeds (faster than 1/50 sec.), which I don’t think I could do before.

 

I think that what I was doing previously was placing the camera on M mode, than toggling the “Select” button until a symbol of three flashing flash symbols came up, then moving the wheel to “on”. That must have been the wrong thing to do, clearly.

 

What I wonder, now that the shutter fires at 1/1000 etc., is whether the flash produced is in fact lasting for the whole duration of the curtain slit’s travel across the frame. I just see one flash, not the series of pulses I imagined HSS to be. Do you get one flash or pulses?

 

Anyway, I guess the way to know for sure is to expose a few frames, develop them, and see.

 

BTW - does anyone have a link to the manual? Part of the problem here is the preponderance of different symbols and controls, and I could do with re-studying it.

[wlaidlaw]

No, TTL does not work with HSS.

 

Like in normal manual mode, the flash range is computed from

the iso and the focal length, the aperture and partial power

you've set on the flash. This range is displayed on the flash.

 

The main difference being that the shutter speed is also taken

into account for the calculation and that the range is much lower.

 

With iso 100, 85mm (no 90 in the menu), f5.6 and 1/1000th of a second,

the range displayed is 0.8m, it would be 1.5m with f5.6 and 1/250th.

 

Many thanks for that explanation. The problem with the SF 40 is that there is no table on the flash. All you have is the very short table at the end of the manual (see below) for the flash at full and reduced power. From this table could you please set out for me the calculation of aperture for the M7 at full flash power, 1/250 shutter speed, 5 metre subject, 100 ISO film, HSS. Once I see what the calculation is, I can then work out what they would be for different parameters. This would be extremely helpful. 

 

Wilson

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[M9reno]

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Jul, thank you very much for both your posts.

I have tried what you said in your first post (#21) and can get the shutter to fire at the high speeds (faster than 1/50 sec.), which I don’t think I could do before.

I think that what I was doing previously was placing the camera on M mode, than toggling the “Select” button until a symbol of three flashing flash symbols came up, then moving the wheel to “on”. That must have been the wrong thing to do, clearly.

What I wonder, now that the shutter fires at 1/1000 etc., is whether the flash produced is in fact lasting for the whole duration of the curtain slit’s travel across the frame. I just see one flash, not the series of pulses I imagined HSS to be. Do you get one flash or pulses?

Anyway, I guess the way to know for sure is to expose a few frames, develop them, and see.

BTW - does anyone have a link to the manual? Part of the problem here is the preponderance of different symbols and controls, and I could do with re-studying it.

Here is the instructions manual link: http://pdfstream.manualsonline.com/1/147c0ea9-b02c-41fb-9f42-20ddbb4ccee6.pdf

 

And - doh - the pulse flashes that I mentioned are stroboscopic mode, nothing to do with HSS.

[Jul]

From this table could you please set out for me the calculation of aperture for the M7 at full flash power, 1/250 shutter speed, 5 metre subject, 100 ISO film, HSS.

Without even calculating, I would say 5m is way out of range.

The table you provided is for a number guide of 40, my data were

for a number guide of 54 and the range was already fairly restrictive.

 

Opening the lens sure helps extending a little the range but except

if you shoot at dawn, dusk, night or interior, the resulting photograph

will be blown out.

[wlaidlaw]

It was for moving subjects in the dark I was thinking of. In November in Sussex we have marvellous bonfire society parades, where the members of each bonfire society spend a lot of the year working on the usually historic costumes they wear. The flash does freeze them to a certain extent but they are often whirling lit blazing torches (health and safety very much takes a back seat at these events) which are then blurred. I still have a few rolls of Fuji 1600 Superia stored in my UK freezer. If I could use 1/250 with the SF40 and M7 that would be great. I tried the M7 and SF58 last year with 1/250 and HSS set manually and it was a dismal failure. I do have an 0.95 Noctilux to get a big aperture. 

 

Wilson

[Jul]

From this table could you please set out for me the calculation (…)

I forgot to mention that this table won't be useful to do the calculation for HSS mode.

The 54mz3 or 54mz4 has a guide number of 54 in normal mode for a 105mm lens

but it drops to 24 in HSS mode. If the SF40 has a guide number of 40 in normal mode,

I would assume its HSS guide number is below 20. You might find it in the user manual.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Jul

[wlaidlaw]

I forgot to mention that this table won't be useful to do the calculation for HSS mode.

The 54mz3 or 54mz4 has a guide number of 54 in normal mode for a 105mm lens

but it drops to 24 in HSS mode. If the SF40 has a guide number of 40 in normal mode,

I would assume its HSS guide number is below 20. You might find it in the user manual.

 

Nothing in the manual. I suspect I am trying to get the SF40 to do something it is really not capable of although if the flash number at 100 ISO was 20, at 1600 ISO it would be 320. I may just have to use one of my Graflashes and Meggaflash PF300 bulbs at £12 a pop 

 

Wilson

[pico]

I may just have to use one of my Graflashes and Meggaflash PF300 bulbs at £12 a pop 

 

Yes, at 1/30^th of a second. That's a lot of £ per-second! Don't you have any brighter bulbs? 

Rather than the Graphic flash, go first-class with a battery-free flash.

Here is one to add another stop. (I made that)

Edited June 14, 2018 by pico

[M9reno]

Will HSS work on the M(240) with either the SF40 or the Metz 54 MZ3?

 

Sorry for what is very likely a silly side-question.

[wlaidlaw]

I have just some experimenting tonight with the SF40 and my SL with the shutter speed set between 1/250 to 1/1000 and the ISO to 1600 (the same as Superia) to see the effect at various apertures. I am doing this as it is a zero cost exercise on the SL to find if I can ascertain some settings that might work with film on my M7. It all works beautifully. F3.5 seems about right for 10 metres with the lens at 50mm and the power up/down on the SF40 controls the brightness very well. I was using TTL on the SF40. Tomorrow night I will do some more experimenting with the SF40 on manual setting. 

 

To answer Jac's questions: No I now have no larger bulbs than PF300's. Meggaflash used to make PF330's but no longer and they are the last flash bulb makers in the world. I have over 250 assorted metal cap bulbs mostly #5, #25 #25B and #26 plus a whole lot of capless PF5 and PF5B bulbs plus other unidentified bulbs with no markings. 

 

When I was at school in Edinburgh in the early 1960's, I acquired two Mazda 75 flash bulbs from a military surplus store. These were used for aviation photography at night. They are the 50 megaton version of flash bulbs and must be around 10 inches tall and about 5 inches in diameter. As reflectors we used a pair of old electric fires, whose tubular elements used a large Edison screw to fit in the centre of a parabolic reflector, which we recovered with aluminium foil. Our idea was to take a photo of Edinburgh Castle at night from Princes Street. We did all this with the assistance of our physics master and he even told the police what we were doing. We had the two flashes coupled up with a relay to a 90 volt dry portable wireless battery and a large capacitor, all triggered from the camera we were using with a small 9v battery to work the relay. The camera was a Leica IIIg belonging to the master. Well the flashes went off with an amazing amount of light, which lit up the whole castle and Castle Rock. Sadly something had gone wrong with the timing and the photo was nearly all dark with just a bright strip at one side. The surplus store had no more of the flash bulbs so no second chance. We thought that the bulbs' rise time must have been quite slow and we also suspected that they may have leaked some of the original pressurised oxygen, considering they were around 20 years old, which slowed them down. 

 

Wilson

Edited June 14, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[pico]

To answer Jac's questions: No I now have no larger bulbs than PF300's. Meggaflash used to make PF330's but no longer and they are the last flash bulb makers in the world. I have over 250 assorted metal cap bulbs mostly #5, #25 #25B and #26 plus a whole lot of capless PF5 and PF5B bulbs plus other unidentified bulbs with no markings. 

 

When I was at school in Edinburgh in the early 1960's, I acquired two Mazda 75 flash bulbs [...]

 

Wilson, I was lucky. A local man was rebuilding his old VW sedan and I mentioned that I had the spare parts he needed. He replied, "I just bought my first house and don't have a lot of money for the VW. The previous owner was an old-time photographer. I inherited a basement stash of flash and studio bulbs. Got any use?"

 

Wow, he walked away with my obsolete VW parts and now I have a basement stash, cases of Edison-base bulbs, including the Mazda 75s, and a lot of bulbs that have a 1.75 second duration. I'm not yet brave enough to try either. I am such a wimp.

 

Oh, and a large box of at least a dozen Graflex flashes, one in the original box: Star Wars enthusiasts be damned.

Edited June 14, 2018 by pico

[wlaidlaw]

Jac, 

 

We stood well back when triggering the Mazda 75's and had the camera about 15 feet behind. Apparently the nitro-cellulose coating on the glass envelope, when it is old, can explode which sends razor sharp shards of glass flying everywhere. Ours didn't but better safe than sorry. Below is the sort of 1930's heater we used as a reflector but without the grille or the cast iron base. I would imagine impossible to find now but easy to find in junk shops in the 1960's for pennies, as they were all being replaced by blower heaters at the time. The 75 bulbs are too big to fit in a Graflash, even though the thread is correct. 

 

Wilson

 

 

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[pico]

That was a creative use of those old units. I am impressed.

To be sure, the shutter speed for old monster bulbs is 'B'.

They ain't what they used to B.

[wlaidlaw]

Jac,

 

At the last minute we found that Major Henshaw, our physics master, didn't have a cable release for his IIIg, otherwise B it would have been. Instead we used one second which didn't work. Knowing what I know now with a lot Barnack type Leicas, I wonder if the blinds were not running properly at 1 second on his IIIg. It is such a common fault. My IIIa, IIIg and Ig all have it at the moment, so they are all off to Alan Starkie in the Autumn to get it sorted. 

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

I have been doing some experiments with the SF40 but with my M9 rather than M7, as I don't want to burn any of my now precious Agfa Precisa and I think the exposure control systems between the M7 and M9 are reasonably similar, using the white dot on the shutter reflecting onto a CdS light sensor. I don't think HSS works. On the M9, the flash only fires with the shutter speed set to flash (1/160), not firing at all at other speeds and I suspect that the M7 may be the same, i.e. the flash does not fire at all, unless the speed is set to 1/50th. This is the case irrespective of the SF40 being set to TTL, M or A. I haven't got my SF58D with me to test how it works on that but I am fairly sure that if I select HSS manually on mine (it is a Mk.1) I can get fill in flash at speeds other than the marked flash shutter speed. 

 

Unless I am missing something, this is a little disappointing. I hope the Nissin MG10 with the SF-C1 controller, might be more flexible if they will talk to each other. Anyone got an M7 without a film in it, to try to see if the M7 behaves like the M9. HSS with the SF40 does work on the SL and CL but not on the M240, where only the bottom part of the image is illuminated at speeds higher than 1/160, although unlike the M9, it does fire the flash. 

 

Wilson

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[sillbeers15]

I do not have a SF40 but judging from the similarity it is with the SF60, it is likely that it gets activated into HSS mode automatically as compared with the SF58 (which I have the gen I) requires it to be set manually as TTL-HSS or Manual-HSS on the control panel of the flash. I purchased the SF58 when I was still having my M9 (before M240 arrived), so I'm not surprised Leica can make the M9 work with SF40 & SF60 by a software upgrade but unfortunately I do not think they are modivated to do so for users. as for M7, it might not be possible for the upgrade as the electronics most likely do not require a processor that is programable. Sigh,...it all boils down to technology advancing too fast.