Confused about metering with my M2

[SilentShutter]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Back to serious now. When I do street with my M3 I never use(d) a lightmeter on it. Way to clumpsy and makes it more uncompact.

The camera is most the time hidden with a strap under my jacket. If I feel unsecure about the settings I can check it with a app on my iPhone

which replaced the old Gossen Funasix F. Corrections by experience and never was completely wrong.

If your exposures seem to fail hardly I would let the camera check - maybe the time(s) are not correct at all ?

[250swb]

Just to clarify - I've never had to apply compensation for reflectance of objects when incident metering to achieve either a good solid negative or positive. However, if I wanted the object to step out of a normal rendering, yes, I might apply compensation based on film characteristic rendering, such as slightly underexposing transparencies to get more "snap".

 

You were dressing up your argument for incident metering by making it sound like reflective metering was overcomplicated. And since somebody else helpfully brought it up an incident meter is indeed the equivalent of the 'P' mode, a 'do-it-all' setting to get a result irrespective of any desire by the photographer for something else. It is true that applying a universal exposure compensation to slide film is about all you can do, and an incident meter is adequate, but if any photographer is using B&W and doing their own processing then an incident meter is an anathema to the creative process of B&W. But given the fact that most reasonably modern film cameras use a reflective meter it is far better for the OP to get into the habit of knowing how to use a reflective meter creatively and not dumb things down with something little more useful than 'Sunny 16'.

 

As regards Martin Parr's comments about the 'P' for 'Professional' mode, I was taught by him and later ran workshops with him (long before he became a Magnum star), and one should not underestimate his dry sense of humour.

[almoore]

if any photographer is using B&W and doing their own processing then an incident meter is an anathema to the creative process of B&W....

That's a long way from the truth. Whatever your preference might be, an incident reading is a valid starting point for b&w exposure decisions.

[wattsy]

That's a long way from the truth. Whatever your preference might be, an incident reading is a valid starting point for b&w exposure decisions.

 

 

I think this point perfectly illustrates (or is apposite to) the discussion going on in the thread about the differences between teaching photographic technique and "seeing". I wouldn't deny that there is a realm of photographic art where spot metering, densitometers, development times, etc. are important parts of the creative process but there is also another world of photographic art where a simple metering approach and the use of black and white film combined with a creative eye/mind works wonders.

[250swb]

That's a long way from the truth. Whatever your preference might be, an incident reading is a valid starting point for b&w exposure decisions.

 

It is a valid starting point, I wouldn't deny that, but the OP has already set sail, he's trying to make a decision on which tack to take.

[Ko.Fe.]

Sorry, I'm late to answer for OP. I was in Montreal for a week and taking street pictures with M4-2 and Sekonic Twinmate.   

 

First of all, why Twinmate. It is not big, it is modern (works reliably, accurate in low light  and using same battery for three years) and it is easy to handle.

How I use it. I have white sphere slided on the metering window. It allows to meter for shadows.

How I meter with it. I'm using common sense and pointing it to the source of light, but depending what I'm taking picture of.

 

Example, I walk on the street with sun behind me, so I turn around and measure the average, to have faces and shadows correctly exposed. If I walk towards the sun and taking same kind of pictures of people walking towards me... I still turn around and measure the average light. 

The average light is where it is not so bright and not so dark.

 

I'm using bw film for street photography. Ilford HP5+ to be exact @1600. This film has great latitude. 

 

If not sure, I always add more light. Open aperture or decrease shutter speed. It is better to overexpose. Street is not about sky .

 

Few recent examples of darkroom prints from negatives taken this way:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those are not ideal prits and not ideal scans of the prints

 

Oh, how I carry it. I have camera on the neck strap, not hiding. Street photography is not about hiding your gear, it is about to be honest and open to people with what you are into. Twinmate has its own neck strap and sliding pouch. I think, it weights 30 grams and it is small.  Camera and meter are most secure and easily reachable this way.  

Edited November 11, 2017 by Ko.Fe.

[Steve Ricoh]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

What about metering for night time scenes of people on the street - I'm thinking of using film for what it's worth, Tri X or HP5+ pushed, but this is more about metering techniques.

[michaelwj]

What about metering for night time scenes of people on the street - I'm thinking of using film for what it's worth, Tri X or HP5+ pushed, but this is more about metering techniques.

This is tricky and easy. The beauty of night time is that the lights stay the same. I typically take incident meter readings under the available lights (a few different readings) and remember the settings, then I either change it based on the lighting the subject is in or go to a minimum setting (wide open and 1/15th) and hope. In these cases if the meter says f/1.0 and 1/4 then I just go to wide open and 1/15 or don't take the shot. To me, night street is about dark shadows and a subject in a lighter area. Of course my way is my way, not the right way, but it works for me.

Edited November 12, 2017 by michaelwj

[Steve Ricoh]

This is tricky and easy. The beauty of night time is that the lights stay the same. I typically take incident meter readings under the available lights (a few different readings) and remember the settings, then I either change it based on the lighting the subject is in or go to a minimum setting (wide open and 1/15th) and hope. In these cases if the meter says f/1.0 and 1/4 then I just go to wide open and 1/15 or don't take the shot. To me, night street is about dark shadows and a subject in a lighter area. Of course my way is my way, not the right way, but it works for me.

I'll try that out, averaging the incident readings. I was uncertain whether incident or spot was appropriate. Either, I suppose, if the user (me) knows what he's doing (says he who has spent far too long allowing digital cameras to sort it for me).

 

For me too, night time shots are about the contrast between darkness and pools of light illuminating the subject. Great when it's raining and you can shelter the camera, or after rain and the wet streets act as a reflector.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Steve Ricoh

[michaelwj]

Steve, reading my post again I see was a bit all over. I'll try and summarise;

At night, I try my best to meter the subject (hopefully well lit) rather than the average scene (which never looks right IMO). The aim, like you say, is to get a well exposed subject against a largely black backdrop.

[Ko.Fe.]

What about metering for night time scenes of people on the street - I'm thinking of using film for what it's worth, Tri X or HP5+ pushed, but this is more about metering techniques.

 

On this week trip to Montreal I did most of the street photography after sun was down. Developed four films already, it is OK for printing. 

 

If it is dark, here is nothing to meter, right? But as long as the light is available, it doesn't matter for metering. Light is just less strong and not covering entire fame often. In other words here is the spot with light and else is dark for night time scene of people. Then, logically, it is two scenarios. People are in dark areas of the frame. It is flash scenario. Or people at the frame where light is in the frame area. It is lightmeter scenario. Measure light and wait for people.

 

I used HP5+ metered @1600 (developed close to 3200) , f2.5 (max aperture of Summarit-M 35) and 1/8, 1/4 shutter speed. Sometimes I used 1/2 or 1/50 and flash. 

 

If traditional light meter is too hard to see in the night, I switch to mobile phone free meter app. It is even more easier to use, but it is slow to take the measure. 

 

Night time scenes are nothing special in terms of metering. Light is consistent, it is not sun going down and light is changing due to this. Often only few scenes needs to be measured, because light at night is consistent. And then it is only three scenarios (settings) - dark, very dark and nothing is visible (flash)

[nic]

... If traditional light meter is too hard to see in the night, I switch to mobile phone free meter app. It is even more easier to use, but it is slow to take the measure. ...

 

 

Did you ever try https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lumu-light-meter/id730969737?mt=8 ? It is free App.

[spydrxx]

Years ago I switched to the New Jiffy Calculator http://www.stacken.kth.se/~maxz/files/jiffy.pdf for night work and found it to work well, with less frustration than my hand held meter in either reflective or incident modes.

[Ko.Fe.]

Did you ever try https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lumu-light-meter/id730969737?mt=8 ? It is free App.

 

With what I have it does the same, including spot metering. It is not the app, it is the iPhone itself as light metering sensor where it is slow to read the light. 

It is also slow to operate, just because I have to unlock it, bring app up. And my iPhone has to be tucked away in warm place. If it is under +5C, it gets cold and shuts itself within few minutes. 

Yet, TwinMate fast to take and read and keeps working after three winters on same battery while been outside just like M4-2 is.

[chrism]

I'd like to tell you the one, true answer. But my experience is that whether I use a reflective (handheld, cold shoe mounted, spot, centre-weighted, average or matrix) meter, an incident meter or a spot meter the exposures mostly come out right. Living in a cold place where batteries die unexpectedly, I can say that Sunny 16 will save you going home for more batteries if you're willing to bet a roll of film against your abilities.

 

I too would really like to have the most accurate and reliable meter right there every time. Instead I have to be glad the gods smile upon fools and let me get it roughly right most of the time. Anyway - all those benighted devils that use digicams and smartphones are using reflective metering (even though they probably don't know it) and their photos come out OK in their tens of thousands each minute....

[pico]

If traditional light meter is too hard to see in the night, I switch to mobile phone free meter app. It is even more easier to use, but it is slow to take the measure.

 

Then, in a pinch there is this.

[Fotoklaus]

I get the same error in exposure for a digital camera too. refective metering works fine, so it's probably not the M2's fault. I think the fault is in user error -- I dont know where to point the incident meter for street photography. If incident meters are supposed to be measuring towards the light source, wouldn't I always point it into the sun?

 

If I want to shoot a scene with half sun and half shadow, but want to expose for the shadow, do I still bother metering the shadow portion of the scene or just adjust my exposure based on the difference of the two halves?

 

no 'issue', just want to understand what I'm doing wrong with incident metering. 

For a proper incident metering you have to put the lightmeter in front of your subject and take a reading towards your camera position and not directly to the light source. For a reading just the shwadow part you have to move the lightneter of course. in the shadow part of the scene.

Incident metering works perfect, when used properly. No matter what kind of dynamic range or conrast your scenery has, there will be a proper reading. A white cat on a white sheet or a black dog

sitting on a dark blanket - the reading will be the same. That is the huge improvement over a reflective metering.

in the shadow part of the scene.

[Brenton C]

The OP, subsequent to his first post, described the fault in his incidental metering method—pointing the dome directly to the light source. Fotoklaus, above, and one or two others have given the correct procedure.

 

I have found incidental metering to deliver much more consistent results, and it’s easier to use on the fly. With reflective metering, even when taking time and being careful, you have to have better judgement than I when trying to compensate for the proverbial light subject on black background or vice versa. I have so often gotten it wrong. (And ohhh how I hated my AE-1, thatwould not reliably let me enter full manual mode for reasons I never understood.)

 

Give incident metering a try, now, I say, but doing it properly. If not in the same light as your subject, then decide if to switch to rflective, or walk over and get an incident reading in the light of the subject. I’m wagering you’ll be thrilled at the consistency of your successful exposures. I’ll wager you a roll of film. Come back and report here.

[Martin B]

Simple answer to which kind of meter should be used: cellphone app. I am using the free LightMeter app on my Android-based phone. It uses the backside camera for spot metering and the front camera for indirect light metering. I found it works nearly as accurate as my Gossen light meter device. With the cellphone app, I avoid carrying an additional item like an external meter. 

I found the sunny f/16 rule not very suitable in many situations with high contrast scenes etc. It only works during bright sunny days in evenly lit scenes - otherwise you need to start adjusting/calculating a lot. Also consider that the further north in latitude you are, the less the f/16 rule applies - it becomes more of a f/11 or f/8 rule. I am far better off using the app with my M3 camera. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Martin B

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[quixotic]

Isn't incident mainly for controlled situations where the subject isn't too far away, and you have enough time on your hands?

 

My advice would be to use a reflective meter for subjects where there isn't a ton of contrast.  But use the same reflective meter with a spot attachment when the subject is wildly contrasting (maybe a group of dark evergreens in a winter snow scene), and then do a bit of rough averaging on either speed or aperture.