M240 to SL Upgrade Dilemma

[Daniel Beacock]

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Hi All

 

Having had my M240 for 4 years, and wanting to move to something that is primarily faster and more modern in operation, I have been toying with the idea of replacing it with either a Sony A7 or an SL.

 

Having borrowed an A7Sii to play around with for a couple of days, and having read every review and comparison between the two systems, I had also pretty much decided that the SL was the best option. Not that the A7 is a bad camera,it is a pretty amazing machine, but I certainly don't feel as connected to it or inspired as I do with my M. For a start it's too small, the focus peaking is truly horrible, even on the lowest setting it floods everything in a heavy outline that defeats the whole object of fine focusing, the menus I can forgive up to a point, I can see the logic involved, but there are just way too many options and crap I would never use in a million years, and the ergonomics are just downright awkward. Also, as much as people rave about the low light capability, I was actually a bit underwhelmed when I saw the results, even at 1600 and 2000.

 

So I dropped into Red Dot Cameras, with the A7Sii, and spent about half an hour comparing the two and getting the feel of the operation of the SL. This only convinced me even more that I was making the right decision, right up until the point when I came across what seems to be at the moment an absolute deal breaker for me.

 

First I should explain that I use my M240 extensively for theatre photography, so relatively low light, but often of a fast changing nature. Absolute nightmare for relying on a camera's metering, usually resulting in hopelessly blown highlights. Because of this I always shoot manual so once I have my aperture set all I need do is rotate the shutter dial and I can cope with those fluctuations in an instant. No problem.

 

Now with the M240's EVF, and with the Exposure Simulation set to Permanent, this means I have a constant feed as to what the final picture will look like. And even when I need to zoom in to focus I can still see what the exposure will be like in the zoomed view, and can even alter my shutter speed right up to the point when I click the shutter. Works brilliantly and I am so used to it I can do it without thinking.

 

My only frustration with the M is the speed. With the small buffer and terrible EVF blackout time, I am really getting to the point where I feel a more modern machine will be able to cope better. I love the M's output, since I have started getting more involved in theatre photography over the last 3 years or so, I have had so many comments from others about the quality of the output, it really does stand out. So my high hope of retaining that Leica look was the SL.

 

But then the bombshell. Apparently no option for constant Exposure Simulation???!!?? Cycling through the front function button will switch on exposure simulation for aperture, then aperture and shutter speed, (which makes fluorescent lights flicker in the EVF by the way!), then off again. But once you take a shot it resets, and you have to press the button again. For. Every. Single. Shot. Now I'm no speed demon, but that is a nightmare scenario for me.

 

Both Francis from Red Dot and myself spent a good quarter of an hour trying to find a solution in the menus, but there doesn't appear to be one. It looks like a function that works perfectly on my 4 year old camera has been left off of what should be a technological marvel when compared to my M!

 

So I'm left in a quandary. The A7 will provide constant exposure simulation, but I have very little enthusiasm to go that route, and the SL, that I would otherwise buy in a heartbeat, doesn't, which would leave me with a tool that with one omission of such simple functionality, would drive me up the wall within minutes.

 

My only hope is that we missed something and that exposure simulation can be switched on permanently, (page 219 of the manual does say that "Exposure simulation mode is canceled if the camera is turned off", which seems an odd thing to state rather than saying it is canceled after just taking a picture), or that maybe firmware changes will bring it back as an option, (I'm not holding my breath).

 

Is anyone else any the wiser on this??

 

Thanks

Daniel

 

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[LD_50]

Two things:

1- The M10 may cover much of your needs.

2- Check the firmware on the SL as the exposure preview changed with FW3. Ensure you have PASM set in the menu to have it on in manual mode.

[jaapv]

Did you try the M10? The EVF may not be as good as the SL but it certainly beats the M240 and there has been an improvement in the buffer etc. 

[Daniel Beacock]

Two things:

1- The M10 may cover much of your needs.

2- Check the firmware on the SL as the exposure preview changed with FW3. Ensure you have PASM set in the menu to have it on in manual mode.

 

Thank you both. Sadly the M10 is currently out of my budget, I should have said I'll be looking for a second hand SL which I figure will be a few hundred £'s more than the second hand value of my M240 plus accessories, so well within my price range. I have thought about the MP240 with the larger buffer, but having seen the EVF of the SL......

 

I saw the firmware change, but as far as I can work out that's simply functionality that turns off the preview mode in manual, (PAS), or turns it on in all modes, (PASM). I don't think it changes the need to press the button for every shot. I'd love someone to tell me I'm wrong on that though!!

[almoore]

Having borrowed an A7Sii to play around with for a couple of days...it's too small, the focus peaking is truly horrible, even on the lowest setting it floods everything in a heavy outline that defeats the whole object of fine focusing, the menus I can forgive up to a point, I can see the logic involved, but there are just way too many options and crap I would never use in a million years, and the ergonomics are just downright awkward. Also, as much as people rave about the low light capability, I was actually a bit underwhelmed when I saw the results, even at 1600 and 2000.

 

If it's too small for you, it's too small, but I think it would be a mistake to definitively write off an A7 series camera without spending a fair amount of time setting one up properly. In default mode, they are, to me, totally unusable, but once you've ploughed through the needlessly opaque menus and disabled all of the things that get in the way they're very good. 

 

What issues did you have with the files at 1600? That's well within the comfort zone of the camera, and there's really no other full frame camera that's as good as the A7S at high ISO. 

[blacksinner]

get an SL and M9. it should cover all your need

[Daniel Beacock]

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If it's too small for you, it's too small, but I think it would be a mistake to definitively write off an A7 series camera without spending a fair amount of time setting one up properly. In default mode, they are, to me, totally unusable, but once you've ploughed through the needlessly opaque menus and disabled all of the things that get in the way they're very good. 

 

What issues did you have with the files at 1600? That's well within the comfort zone of the camera, and there's really no other full frame camera that's as good as the A7S at high ISO. 

 

Definitely not writing it off, having slept on it if the SL won't provide me with that functionality I have no other FF option, and I'd rather stick with FF. Sorry I should have been more specific with my thoughts on the A7 files, and in hindsight I am probably being unduly harsh.

 

Firstly, ironically even with the exposure simulation on all the time, I found I was getting way more underexposed shots with the A7 than the M240, not just one or two either but a lot, and probably by as much as a stop on average. It may just be that I am not 100% used to the system after only a couple of days, or that I was fooled into thinking the shot was brighter due to all the crazy peaking going on, but some shots I did on Wednesday night I had to increase the exposure in post more than usual to correct. In doing so I found the shadow areas were very noisy with a fair bit of banding. With the M240 I know from experience that if I'm struggling for speed in low light, I usually underexpose using an ISO as low as I can to retain decent quality, probably 1000 to 1250, and find that I can still bring it back up a stop or even more in post with little evidence of banding. I guess I was just expecting the A7 to be a quantum leap forward in low light capability but pushing 1600 to 2000 files in post,admittedly probably more than I would normally, didn't fill me with confidence. But I guess I probably just need to have the confidence to use a much higher ISO than I would normally and not be forced into having to over-compensate in post. So scratch the ISO comments, the ones correctly exposed do look amazing, I probably just need another couple of test drives to get in the flow!

 

And maybe I would learn to live with it and appreciate it, maybe I'm just a bit in shock that a camera that has so much of the DNA of a system that I am so familiar with and I thought was going to answer all my needs is probably not going to be suitable for me is a tough thing to face. It is frustrating that it seems such a simple function to include, with absolutely no logical reason whatsoever not to have it as an option.

[Daniel Beacock]

get an SL and M9. it should cover all your need

 

Luckily I'll still be getting my RF fix with my M3 and XPan!

[thighslapper]

Daniel ...... I use the SL exactly as you want for landscape work....

 

In manual mode with PASM set with a fixed iso it gives you an EVF view of exactly what you have set on the aperture and speed dials. 

 

Both view, histogram and clipping change in real time. With Auto ISO on it (obviously) won't work.

[almoore]

even with the exposure simulation on all the time, I found I was getting way more underexposed shots with the A7 than the M240, not just one or two either but a lot, and probably by as much as a stop on average. It may just be that I am not 100% used to the system after only a couple of days, or that I was fooled into thinking the shot was brighter due to all the crazy peaking going on, but some shots I did on Wednesday night I had to increase the exposure in post more than usual to correct. In doing so I found the shadow areas were very noisy with a fair bit of banding. With the M240 I know from experience that if I'm struggling for speed in low light, I usually underexpose using an ISO as low as I can to retain decent quality, probably 1000 to 1250, and find that I can still bring it back up a stop or even more in post with little evidence of banding. I guess I was just expecting the A7 to be a quantum leap forward in low light capability but pushing 1600 to 2000 files in post,admittedly probably more than I would normally, didn't fill me with confidence.

 

You can adjust viewfinder brightness. I also enable a live histogram in the viewfinder. It's small, translucent, sits in a corner and really doesn't get in the way while giving a lot of useful exposure information. 

 

I've never used peaking, I only use Sonys with native AF lenses. 

 

Regarding banding, I'm really surprised that you're experiencing it. I find the A7S files to be very robust and banding free. Which RAW converter did you use?

[Daniel Beacock]

You can adjust viewfinder brightness. I also enable a live histogram in the viewfinder. It's small, translucent, sits in a corner and really doesn't get in the way while giving a lot of useful exposure information.

 

I've never used peaking, I only use Sonys with native AF lenses.

 

Regarding banding, I'm really surprised that you're experiencing it. I find the A7S files to be very robust and banding free. Which RAW converter did you use?

Lightroom. Looking at the files again this morning I think I know what some of the issue is. I took some shots experimenting with the electronic shutter under really heavy mixed lighting, (it was a fundraising gala performance, lots is spots of mixed colours). Banding is atrocious with those even with a good exposure! But understandable I guess. Ok, I'll remember not to try that again.... Under normal theatre lighting I didn't get that with the electronic shutter, although the performance I tried it with was a drama with little change in lighting levels.

 

Thanks for the other tips.

 

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[Daniel Beacock]

Daniel ...... I use the SL exactly as you want for landscape work....

 

In manual mode with PASM set with a fixed iso it gives you an EVF view of exactly what you have set on the aperture and speed dials.

 

Both view, histogram and clipping change in real time. With Auto ISO on it (obviously) won't work.

Ok, and is that constant, without having to press the function button again between every single shot?

 

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[almoore]

Lightroom. Looking at the files again this morning I think I know what some of the issue is. I took some shots experimenting with the electronic shutter under really heavy mixed lighting, (it was a fundraising gala performance, lots is spots of mixed colours). Banding is atrocious with those even with a good exposure!

Yes, that makes sense, and, of course the banding that can come from pulsing light sources when using electronic shutter is a very different thing to the banding that comes from lifted shadows.

 

My experience is that Sony sensors are far less prone to shadow banding than the sensors used by either Leica or Canon. The 12MP sensor in the A7S is remarkably good at higher ISOs, not only having low noise but retaining a lot of dynamic range.

[thighslapper]

Ok, and is that constant, without having to press the function button again between every single shot?

 

Well it is on my set-up.

 

Perhaps others can confirm this is the case ?

 

(the one caveat is that I am still using the last beta version of V3 and never upgraded to the final release as it was allegedly unchanged) 

[Daniel Beacock]

Ok, and is that constant, without having to press the function button again between every single shot?

 

Well it is on my set-up.

 

Perhaps others can confirm this is the case ?

 

(the one caveat is that I am still using the last beta version of V3 and never upgraded to the final release as it was allegedly unchanged)

That sounds very promising!! Is this with native SL lenses? If so do you know if it does the same with M lenses as well?

 

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[LocalHero1953]

Ok, and is that constant, without having to press the function button again between every single shot?

 

Well it is on my set-up.

 

Perhaps others can confirm this is the case ?

 

(the one caveat is that I am still using the last beta version of V3 and never upgraded to the final release as it was allegedly unchanged) 

Yes, although it is not something I rely on fully, so it's not at the front of my mind. It must work though: I usually have it set to PASM, and it irritates me intensely when I fit a flash in low light, set ISO, shutter speed and aperture manually for flash, and find the EVF goes dark.

[Daniel Beacock]

Yes, although it is not something I rely on fully, so it's not at the front of my mind. It must work though: I usually have it set to PASM, and it irritates me intensely when I fit a flash in low light, set ISO, shutter speed and aperture manually for flash, and find the EVF goes dark.

Brilliant! Thanks for confirming. Looks like I need a quick trip to Red Dot to have another play....

 

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[thighslapper]

That sounds very promising!! Is this with native SL lenses? If so do you know if it does the same with M lenses as well?

 

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 yes ...... with the 24-90 zoom I have it set on manual focus for landscape/tripod use (although pressing the joystick still invokes AF) ...... and with M lenses it defaults to this anyway. 

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[helged]

 yes ...... with the 24-90 zoom I have it set on manual focus for landscape/tripod use (although pressing the joystick still invokes AF) ...... and with M lenses it defaults to this anyway. 

 

 

+1 (this is pretty much the setting I use all/most of the time).

[geetee1972]

 

Well it is on my set-up.

 

Perhaps others can confirm this is the case ?

I use this approach quite often with an M lens - PASM and fixed ISO gives a constant visual exposure through the EVF. I also learned recently that you can compensate just the EVF brightness in this mode as well, it appears as exposure compensation but it only compensates what you see through the EVF, not the actual exposure. This is very useful.