pgk Posted June 7, 2017 Share #221 Posted June 7, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Indulge me to attempt a simplification for you. Next time you observe something you decide to photograph, what is your first, or early impulse? I will suggest, based on my own experience, that it is to choose a lens best suited to your vision of the subject. In other words, that is choosing a focal length, which, whilst you 'choose' it, it is really dictated by the subject because of its scale, distance from you, etc. I don't find that concept difficult. Maybe you work differently, which is fine. Let me add a short story. A few years ago I was asked to photograph some hotel interiors. One room in particular wanted an updated and 'different' photo from the existing one in the brochure (not taken by myself). I specifically did not view the existing image. I went into the room, examined it, chose my lens and took the first photo from the obvious viewpoint - ie the image which would clearly show the room off to best advantage. It was, of course, almost identical to the one in the existing brochure. Which goes to show that some subjects are highly specific in how one has to treat them. Focal length in this case was absolutely dictated by subject matter and clearly I was not the first to discover this. OK, many will say, well yes that's an interior therefore wide-angle, etc., etc., which is somewhat true, but my point is that attempting to shoot the room on a different lens would clearly have resulted in a poorer image because there was an optimum viewpoint/lens/composition and I would say that this is far more often than not the case for most subjects. I have no problem with others choosing a different path but as I have said all along its very limiting and very, very few photographers have done so, and many who have, have done so because of the limitations of their technology. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 Hi pgk, Take a look here Is 35mm All You Really Need?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wattsy Posted June 7, 2017 Share #222 Posted June 7, 2017 ....a different lens would clearly have resulted in a poorer image because there was an optimum viewpoint/lens/composition and I would say that this is far more often than not the case for most subjects. I have no problem with others choosing a different path but as I have said all along its very limiting and very, very few photographers have done so, and many who have, have done so because of the limitations of their technology. On the contrary, I think many have done so because they are not hidebound by the idea that the subject dictates an "optimum viewpoint/lens/composition". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted June 7, 2017 Share #223 Posted June 7, 2017 If you believe such things are dictated by the subject then I think you (and Paul) are betraying an innate conservatism that you are finding difficult to see beyond. Yes, as it happens I've decided to remove more variables. In future I will only ever take images at 3m from my subject. And only ever at f/2. 100 ISO is fixed too. And only by on camera small flash illumination. Makes perfect sense , or at least as much sense as fixing a variable like focal length. Why ditch versatility and then suggest that versatility is an innate conservatism? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted June 7, 2017 Share #224 Posted June 7, 2017 On the contrary, I think many have done so because they are not hidebound by the idea that the subject dictates an "optimum viewpoint/lens/composition". So here we go back to the crux of this thread. Who are these people who have consciously ditched all but one focal length? Most of those quoted actually haven't if put under scrutiny and I've yet to have any respondents to my query for forum members who do so. Sorry but I still think its fundamentally a myth that one focal length is all someone needs. There will be exceptions (there always are) but few and far between and there will always be the question as to whether they could have taken better images if not so blinkered in their view of photography .. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted June 7, 2017 Share #225 Posted June 7, 2017 I can't even get my head around that stream of consciousness but Erl has 'thanked' it so I guess you are saying much the same thing as he is. As I stated above, I think you are probably saying something tautologous. If you choose a lens that is "best suited to your vision" then, in choosing that focal length, you are doing so because you want to photograph a subject in a certain way. The choice of focal length is not "dictated by the subject" any more than is the choice of film (colour or black and white) or medium of expression (film or digital or indeed pencils). If you believe such things are dictated by the subject then I think you (and Paul) are betraying an innate conservatism that you are finding difficult to see beyond. Clearly you go out with one camera, one lens and one pencil before you know what you wish to record. it's a pity you didn't join us in Melbourne recently for the Leica One Challenge. You would presumably have done very well. The whole point of the challenge was to limit the photographer to just that (minus the pencil). It was universally accepted that this deliberately makes it difficult to shoot an unknown subject, yet to be encountered. I think the majority of members on this forum would agree the whole point of having a choice or selection of lenses permits the use of the most appropriate focal length for the task in hand, acknowledging the surrounding limitations of the subject. I have no difficulty seeing beyond the conservatism you ascribe to me, but maybe your difficulty is not seeing an alternative explanation for why you use a particular lens, assuming you have more than one. Edit: Yes, frequently the subject does dictate the use of colur or B&W (or pencil) or film or digital. If you can't see that, I suggest it is because you don't want to. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted June 7, 2017 Share #226 Posted June 7, 2017 I think that if you must bring only one lens with you, this is the perfect choice. The perfect choice? Not quite. If I may bring only one lens, it will certainly be my Tri-Elmar-M 28/35/50 . Saves a lot of trouble. Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted June 7, 2017 Share #227 Posted June 7, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Why ditch versatility and then suggest that versatility is an innate conservatism? That's not what I wrote. You are reaching a wrong conclusion by using a premiss I didn't make. What I wrote was that the idea that the subject dictates a particular focal length betrays a certain conservatism. Clearly you go out with one camera, one lens and one pencil before you know what you wish to record. it's a pity you didn't join us in Melbourne recently for the Leica One Challenge. You would presumably have done very well. The whole point of the challenge was to limit the photographer to just that (minus the pencil). It was universally accepted that this deliberately makes it difficult to shoot an unknown subject, yet to be encountered. This brings us back to Peter's point a little earlier about asking yourself what is the intention in going out with a camera. I know that I don't go out carrying gear just on the off chance that I might want to take a portrait here, an interior here and some astrophotography there. I go out with a camera knowing where I'm going and the photographs that I have in mind. At that point I will decide what lens or lenses to take. The only time I take more gear than I anticipate needing is on the occasions when I'm being paid and have been given a very vague or wide brief. Then I take all sorts of shit with me, including lenses going from wide to telephoto. However, that is just one scenario – the classic "jobbing photographer" job that I alluded to many pages ago in this thread – which is not an approach that holds any greater truth about how to do photography than the approach by a person who prefers to go out with a single focal length. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted June 7, 2017 Share #228 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) Sorry but I still think its fundamentally a myth that one focal length is all someone needs. There will be exceptions (there always are) but few and far between and there will always be the question as to whether they could have taken better images if not so blinkered in their view of photography .. Why will there always be the question "as to whether they could have taken better images"? Leaving aside your unnecessary preoccupation with the actual number of lenses that a photographer may have ever used (as if disproving the specific also disproves the general argument being discussed), do you seriously think anyone looks at any photographs by a great photographer and thinks "if only they'd used a 50mm instead of a 35mm"? If only they weren't so blinkered! Edited June 7, 2017 by wattsy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted June 7, 2017 Share #229 Posted June 7, 2017 But sometimes the same subject may be photographed in various different ways with a variety of different lenses. Say in a model shoot one may choose to use a 35mm and then switch to a 85mm or a 135mm. The subject remains the same, and surely it is the vision of the photographer that changes over (however brief a period of) time? I can photograph my cat with a 35mm while I stand and shoot downward, which captures the entire cat in the frame; or for a more comical look I can use a 14mm and take a shot really close to its nose so that it is very much exaggerated. So I'm not sure it is always solely the subject that determines the focal length used. I don't think you can usefully extend the category "subject" over multiple exposures. The subject is a property of one picture. Even if your cat is in every shot the subject of each shot is the cat-at-that-time. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rus Posted June 7, 2017 Share #230 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) I don't think you can usefully extend the category "subject" over multiple exposures. The subject is a property of one picture. Even if your cat is in every shot the subject of each shot is the cat-at-that-time. OK granted. But then in this case one can surely argue that the "subject" is no longer the physical being that one photographs, but a metaphysical abstraction of the photographer's vision about how the physical being should appear in each of the photographs? And hence shouldn't this still mean that the photographer is at the very least partly involved in the choice of the focal length, instead of being only the sort of vehicle through which the choice of focal length is determined by the...er..now I don't really know what.. "subject"? And in any case I don't feel this more abstract definition of the word "subject" is what was meant in another member's earlier thread arguing about the subject determining the focal length. If we are indeed talking about subject as including the photographer's vision, then I certainly find the argument of subject determining the focal length much more acceptable. Edited June 7, 2017 by Rus 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted June 7, 2017 Share #231 Posted June 7, 2017 Real world update on this "35mm is all I need theory", which I support, but... My M8 35 framelines are far from to be the best. 28mm lens is the best for M8, IMO. 5$ FSU 28mm Industar 69 lens does it for me on M8. My M-E 35mm framelines ain't much better, it is known to be more like 40mm framelines. The 40mm lens now slowly approaching me by local mail service. My M3 ELC is 50mm lens camera. Period. I just have to get Leica 50mm lens for it instead of FSU 9$ lens I'm using now. And my M4-2, where real 35mm framelines do exists are at the second service since December 2016. So, my only Leica lens which I purchased new in 2016 is going to be unused for unknown period of time and it is 35mm lens... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted June 7, 2017 Share #232 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) Real world update on this "35mm is all I need theory", which I support, but... My M8 35 framelines are far from to be the best. 28mm lens is the best for M8, IMO. 5$ FSU 28mm Industar 69 lens does it for me on M8. My M-E 35mm framelines ain't much better, it is known to be more like 40mm framelines. The 40mm lens now slowly approaching me by local mail service. My M3 ELC is 50mm lens camera. Period. I just have to get Leica 50mm lens for it instead of FSU 9$ lens I'm using now. And my M4-2, where real 35mm framelines do exists are at the second service since December 2016. So, my only Leica lens which I purchased new in 2016 is going to be unused for unknown period of time and it is 35mm lens... You need to buy an M2, it has excellent 35mm frame lines. Edited June 7, 2017 by mikemgb Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jto555 Posted June 7, 2017 Share #233 Posted June 7, 2017 Wedding photography is a very specialised thing and I don't think it tells us much about what we need for most other types of photography. I'd give up photography altogether rather than have to carry every focal length from 16mm to 200mm (plus lighting etc etc...) in order to feel I had everything covered. I get what the OP is saying, but it's a matter of your own creative impulse, unless you are working to a very restrictive job spec. What are you trying to do with your camera? Why are you even taking photos in the first place? You really ought to be able to answer these questions before you consider what focal length best serves your purpose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jto555 Posted June 7, 2017 Share #234 Posted June 7, 2017 Hi Peter, it may be specialised but in a broad spectrum. Wedding photographers have to be excellent at: Portraits Environmental portraits Fashion Event photography Documentary photography Close up/macro photography And all of this while trying to look calm and in control. That is the hard part! I'm not a wedding photographer but I have photographed a few and I find 3 lenses cover most of what I need. A 21mm, a 35mm and a 75mm. They are small and fit in pockets, so no issue carrying them. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted June 7, 2017 Share #235 Posted June 7, 2017 I feel that a great deal of waffle (mine included if you like) in this thread is a failure of individual posters to have an understanding of just how varied the scope of photography is. Some of us have worked in areas that others may not have dreamt of. It must be allowed for those photographers to declare what practice has taught them. It must also be allowed for those photographers in other, maybe narrower scopes of enterprise, to declare what they consider adequate for the job. There have been many declarations in this thread of what is or is not necessary. I will never accept someone else telling me what is best for my work unless they have actually walked in my shoes. As an aside, a few have tried and ended up footsore and weary. So, what is really needed is stamina. Suffer for your craft. I blame the title of this thread for attempting to cast a limited net over too large a subject. No offense intended to the OP. Nothing in this thread has convinced me to change how I shoot, or think. I don't expect it will change anyone else either. It was an interesting diversion. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramosa Posted June 7, 2017 Share #236 Posted June 7, 2017 If you only own a 35mm lens, then it's the best one to bring. Jeff Well said ... I feel the same way about my 50mm (which is my only current lens after years of experimentation). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted June 8, 2017 Share #237 Posted June 8, 2017 The best is to shoot with 35mm framelines regardless of the lens used. There are a lot of happy surprises to be had, and a lot to learn from, too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted June 8, 2017 Share #238 Posted June 8, 2017 It's even more surprising if you close your eyes when shooting, or just not looking in the VF! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted June 8, 2017 Share #239 Posted June 8, 2017 (edited) Let me add a short story. A few years ago I was asked to photograph some hotel interiors. One room in particular wanted an updated and 'different' photo from the existing one in the brochure (not taken by myself). I specifically did not view the existing image. I went into the room, examined it, chose my lens and took the first photo from the obvious viewpoint - ie the image which would clearly show the room off to best advantage. It was, of course, almost identical to the one in the existing brochure. Which goes to show that some subjects are highly specific in how one has to treat them. Focal length in this case was absolutely dictated by subject matter and clearly I was not the first to discover this. OK, many will say, well yes that's an interior therefore wide-angle, etc., etc., which is somewhat true, but my point is that attempting to shoot the room on a different lens would clearly have resulted in a poorer image because there was an optimum viewpoint/lens/composition and I would say that this is far more often than not the case for most subjects. I draw a different conclusion from this. If it shows anything, it shows that most jobbing commercial photographers have a very definite and narrowly constrained view of what their clients want. Do you think that if the two photographers in question were Parr and Pinkhassov they'd have taken near identical photographs? Or that either of them would have come up with something similar to you and the first guy? So here we go back to the crux of this thread. Who are these people who have consciously ditched all but one focal length? Most of those quoted actually haven't if put under scrutiny... Are you disagreeing with my earlier suggestion that Steve Pyke made the journey from the low paid world of the 80s British music press to arguably the most coveted position in the editorial world as staff photographer at the New Yorker, using no more than a fixed lens Rolleiflex? I've yet to have any respondents to my query for forum members who do so. Sorry but I still think its fundamentally a myth that one focal length is all someone needs I recently spent a year of my life using no other lens than a 40mm on a series of photographs that were very important to me. Normally, I use more than one focal length, but even then they're very tightly grouped - 35mm, 40mm, 50mm. You're devaluing language by repeatedly claiming that the one focal length photographer is a myth when it's clearly anything but. Edited June 8, 2017 by almoore Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted June 8, 2017 Share #240 Posted June 8, 2017 do you seriously think anyone looks at any photographs by a great photographer and thinks "if only they'd used a 50mm instead of a 35mm"? If only they weren't so blinkered! You're a regular here and you have to ask that question? There are many who choose to take the path of scrutinising the craft at the expense of the art... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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