LocalHero1953 Posted March 19, 2017 Share #81 Posted March 19, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) As an SL owner, I've never seen its attraction purely as a platform for M lenses. If one can live with the M10's EVF rather than the SL's, now that you have a movable focus point the SL just doesn't make sense. As a platform for the SL's AF stabilised lenses, of course, it makes perfect sense, with the added bonus of taking M and other lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 19, 2017 Posted March 19, 2017 Hi LocalHero1953, Take a look here M10 or SL. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
tobey bilek Posted March 19, 2017 Share #82 Posted March 19, 2017 Looked at SL2 at Leica dealer yesterday. Never looked thru a Mirrorless before except a Nex 5 years ago. SL2 is a huge improvement, bright, detailed, and probably best of its type. Camera is big, VF lag is noticeable, and screen made me dizzy within 10 seconds. I`ll not have to worry about buying one now. Before you ask, there is nothing wrong with my eyes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 19, 2017 Share #83 Posted March 19, 2017 Looked at SL2 at Leica dealer yesterday. Never looked thru a Mirrorless before except a Nex 5 years ago. SL2 is a huge improvement, bright, detailed, and probably best of its type. Camera is big, VF lag is noticeable, and screen made me dizzy within 10 seconds. I`ll not have to worry about buying one now. It may be that in future there will be a divide between those who've grown up with optical VF systems and want to stick with this approach, and those who are familiar with and prefer the EVF experience. My own experience is that I prefer OVF in most circumstance but delight in the flexibility you can get from EVF. One point where the M10 wins over the SL is that the EVF is articulated. I now really enjoy using the 21 SEM on the M10 at low angles that would have been a real pain with the RF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted March 21, 2017 Share #84 Posted March 21, 2017 It may be that in future there will be a divide between those who've grown up with optical VF systems and want to stick with this approach, and those who are familiar with and prefer the EVF experience. My own experience is that I prefer OVF in most circumstance but delight in the flexibility you can get from EVF. One point where the M10 wins over the SL is that the EVF is articulated. I now really enjoy using the 21 SEM on the M10 at low angles that would have been a real pain with the RF. This is a good explanation of why I have decided to keep both an SL and a M10. There are certain things each do better than the other. They are very good complements. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 21, 2017 Share #85 Posted March 21, 2017 This is a good explanation of why I have decided to keep both an SL and a M10. There are certain things each do better than the other. They are very good complements. Yes - the good thing about EVFs is that they are WYSIWYG. The good thing about OVFs is that they are not WYSIWYG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff S Posted March 21, 2017 Share #86 Posted March 21, 2017 I have and use both. But when I'm using the SL, I keep thinking I'm using my old Nikon D3H with a 300mm lens. So I wonder why I don't use the Nikon. When I'm using the M10, it's so compact, easy to use - just pick it up and go, takes extraordinary pictures and is fun to use and carry and put on the table where I'm eating lunch instead of borrowing a chair for the SL and zoom. So, for professional Nikon feel photography, the SL - which is a definite upgrade to the Nikon, for photography with control and fun and a camera you would take anywhere, the M10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 21, 2017 Share #87 Posted March 21, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yes - the good thing about EVFs is that they are WYSIWYG. The good thing about OVFs is that they are not WYSIWYG. An OVF fan might say the reverse. But one benefit of EVF is that it eliminates the need to micro-adjust lenses to a body since the EVF sees what the sensor sees. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 21, 2017 Share #88 Posted March 21, 2017 An OVF fan might say the reverse. Well I was being ironic, so all options are possible Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 21, 2017 Share #89 Posted March 21, 2017 So, for professional Nikon feel photography, the SL - which is a definite upgrade to the Nikon, for photography with control and fun and a camera you would take anywhere, the M10 Certainly I'd agree about the value of the M. So far as the SL is concerned - and whether it offers value for money for a working photographer, apart from the reach to 280 I couldn't feel a real advantage of the SL over my Canon 5D3 with L series lenses. In terms of value for money, the M is fantastic - because there's NOTHING that does the same job. The SL? It's a great camera - but it's WAY too expensive for the IQ advantage IMHO - and the full frame OVF on a 5D3 beats the SL EVF experience hands down for me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budfox Posted March 21, 2017 Share #90 Posted March 21, 2017 I am sure there are many who would say that an M10 is WAY too expensive for the IQ advantage as well (in fact I know this just by a quick browse of comments of every dpreview.com Leica M post). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff S Posted March 21, 2017 Share #91 Posted March 21, 2017 But the M is in a different category than AF large body cameras. It's small, most lenses are tiny, the viewfinder is unique and the method of photography is different. This has nothing to do with IQ which is excellent as well. The SL which I enjoy too, is in a big sea of cameras that, while technically are different, have a similar approach to photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 21, 2017 Share #92 Posted March 21, 2017 Certainly I'd agree about the value of the M. So far as the SL is concerned - and whether it offers value for money for a working photographer, apart from the reach to 280 I couldn't feel a real advantage of the SL over my Canon 5D3 with L series lenses. In terms of value for money, the M is fantastic - because there's NOTHING that does the same job. The SL? It's a great camera - but it's WAY too expensive for the IQ advantage IMHO - and the full frame OVF on a 5D3 beats the SL EVF experience hands down for me... I know you don't really like the SL, Chris, but is this really a fair comparison? It's not really about IQ advantage (though it was a significant improvement over the M(240) IQ, in my view). The SL offers a whole lot more, and is a viable alternative to the M, at a similar price. Both are great, but they are different. I don't really think price is the issue. If you want to use a 5D3, that's a whole other thing - for lens compatibility, if nothing more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted March 22, 2017 Share #93 Posted March 22, 2017 And what would the M be? Decorative handkerchief in breast pocket of suit jacket ! SL2 with 24/90 is a big clunky gear. Screen while bright and detailed, gave me a headache and made me nauseous. Suggest you try before buy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 22, 2017 Share #94 Posted March 22, 2017 So, better to stick to the SL and not upgrade? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 22, 2017 Share #95 Posted March 22, 2017 I know you don't really like the SL, Chris, but is this really a fair comparison? It's not really about IQ advantage (though it was a significant improvement over the M(240) IQ, in my view). The SL offers a whole lot more, and is a viable alternative to the M, at a similar price. Both are great, but they are different. I don't really think price is the issue. If you want to use a 5D3, that's a whole other thing - for lens compatibility, if nothing more. Hi - sorry if I wasn't clear. It's not so much that I didn't like the SL, it's that I couldn't / didn't want to lay out so much on the lenses. If you can, and can live with the bulk and the weight, the SL is a very capable system. However, if you're only going to be using M lenses on it I really really think the M10 is a better option - and with the EVF it's easier to use with the 135 A-T. It really does give the best of both worlds for manual focus lenses. When I need AF, zooms - long or wide, and all the whistles and bells (try the quiet mode on the new Canon 5 series bodies and you'll be impressed!) I'd rather stick with the Canon 5D3 which gives (IMHO) comparable IQ from the excellent L series lenses for a fraction of the price of an SL zoom system. As ever - just my 2 cents... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 22, 2017 Share #96 Posted March 22, 2017 Chris, do you micro-adjust your Canon lenses and body for focus optimization? I know Canon users who go through this laborious task (e.g., using LensAlign or similar) for each lens before they realize maximum potential. Zooms are more difficult, typically allowing for only short/long adjustment settings. One benefit of EVF- based cameras like the SL is that this process is unnecessary. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 22, 2017 Share #97 Posted March 22, 2017 Jeff - it's honestly never felt necessary for the use that I put them to. I use the 5D3 with L series 24-70 Mk2 and 70-200 IS mk2. They're bomb proof and 100% reliable. Most of the close head shots in this set would have been with the 70-200. Others are M240 in fact. Check image 48 in the set. This is astoundingly sharp at 100% Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 22, 2017 Share #98 Posted March 22, 2017 Jeff - it's honestly never felt necessary for the use that I put them to. I use the 5D3 with L series 24-70 Mk2 and 70-200 IS mk2. They're bomb proof and 100% reliable. Most of the close head shots in this set would have been with the 70-200. Others are M240 in fact. Check image 48 in the set. This is astoundingly sharp at 100% Not everyone is so fortunate....https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/08/70-200mm-f2-8-mtf-and-variations/ Then add body specs to lens variation and the odds for errors increase. Whether this is material in prints, or based on user standards, is another matter. FWIW, I have a friend who was happy with his Canon lenses, but was astounded how much better his results were after fine tuning using the the built-in adjustments. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
anickpick Posted March 23, 2017 Share #99 Posted March 23, 2017 A while ago a friend of mine complained, that the focus of his fast Sigma Art lenses was not spot on when used wide open. Together, we went through the micro-adjustments (part of the Canon camera menu). It took us about 20 minutes with each of his two lenses. After this, focus was spot on. I was impressed. Much better than sending your M lens together with you M body to Leica for calibration and waiting for two to three weeks until you have it back, hopefully correctly calibrated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 23, 2017 Share #100 Posted March 23, 2017 Not everyone is so fortunate.... https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/08/70-200mm-f2-8-mtf-and-variations/ Then add body specs to lens variation and the odds for errors increase. Whether this is material in prints, or based on user standards, is another matter. FWIW, I have a friend who was happy with his Canon lenses, but was astounded how much better his results were after fine tuning using the the built-in adjustments. Jeff Clearly something to consider. When I'm back off this job I'll look into it. Returning to the benefits of the M10 - if you do find you have a problem lens the EVF solves the problem until you can get things calibrated. What I'm finding with the 135 A-T is that I can do quick framing with the OVF and easily switch to EVF if really fine tuning is needed. Of course this isn't a solution for sports shooting - but I don't use the M10 for this. For documentary / landscape / portraiture, it works well. The image here was shot this way. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I had no freedom of movement around the room during this particular lesson, but the combination of two bodies + the 135 / 75 / 50 and 28 made it possible to build a good account of the context and what was going on in the context without being intrusive or disturbing either the teacher or the students. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I had no freedom of movement around the room during this particular lesson, but the combination of two bodies + the 135 / 75 / 50 and 28 made it possible to build a good account of the context and what was going on in the context without being intrusive or disturbing either the teacher or the students. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268611-m10-or-sl/?do=findComment&comment=3239857'>More sharing options...
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